3 ms·

When can I get a total replacement of CSS with something more sane? Seems like one of the few pieces of the stack that's just not getting any better over time.

When can I get a total replacement of CSS with something more sane? Seems like one of the few pieces of the stack that's just not getting any better over time. And no, flex isn't better.

chrismorgan 3y ago
I have no idea how you get to this from the article or the discussions in this thread. What do you propose to replace CSS with? How will it avoid the problems you perceive with CSS while still being useful? (I’m genuinely curious what you think is wrong with CSS, and how it could be fixed. I’ve heard this kind of sentiment from time to time, and never had a reasonable answer. CSS certainly isn’t perfect, but it’s not at all bad, and most criticisms of it like the meme “CSS is awesome” box with overflow genuinely come from not understanding it and why any other approach would be worse.)
- alex_lav 3y ago
  > What do you propose to replace CSS with I don't think I need to have a solution prepared to define a problem? > How will it avoid the problems you perceive with CSS while still being useful? How did <insert any language> replace <insert any older language> while still being useful? This is kind of what I mean when talking about CSS. For whatever reason, all of the innovation, invention, tinkering, progress that went into _every other aspect of software_ just gets forgotten about with regard to CSS? This idea that CSS is the perfect solution, or close enough that there's no reason to invent something radically different. We're on our 5000th Javascript build tool but we still just have terrible old CSS. > and never had a reasonable answer. Completely reasonable answer: I have no idea, it's not my responsibility to create a solution. CSS is enough of a problem that I just generally refuse to use it. I'm not alone in this.
  - chrismorgan 3y ago
    What do you even find wrong with CSS? You haven’t defined the problem at all.
    - alex_lav 3y ago
      1. Positioning (yes even with flex) is unintuitive and painful 2. The fact that the !important tag exists, and at a broader level the fact that cascading exists 3. The community seems pretty hellbent on rejecting working solutions for being "bad". float: left is "bad". And yet, many/any other positioning systems are, to me, much worse. So to me, it's all "bad". Similarly, tables are the easiest way to position things correctly (since point 1, all other positioning tools are pretty bad), and yet, table-based-layouts are "bad". So again, it's all "bad". More elegantly put: - https://adamwathan.me/css-utility-classes-and-separation-of-concerns/ https://adamwathan.me/css-utility-classes-and-separation-of-... - If you search "What's wrong with CSS y combinator", you'll get some derivative of this exact conversation over and over again for the past 15 years. CSS people saying "no it's good!", many other types of people saying "it's just too complicated and I don't want to keep doing it", followed by css people saying "no it's good!" I think Tailwind is probably the closest approximation to tolerable CSS, but I also think its existence highlights a greater problem with both the community and the technology.

When can I get a total replacement of CSS with something more sane? Seems like one of the few pieces of the stack that's just not getting any better over time. And no, flex isn't better.

chrismorgan 3y ago

I have no idea how you get to this from the article or the discussions in this thread. What do you propose to replace CSS with? How will it avoid the problems you perceive with CSS while still being useful? (I’m genuinely curious what you think is wrong with CSS, and how it could be fixed. I’ve heard this kind of sentiment from time to time, and never had a reasonable answer. CSS certainly isn’t perfect, but it’s not at all bad, and most criticisms of it like the meme “CSS is awesome” box with overflow genuinely come from not understanding it and why any other approach would be worse.)

alex_lav 3y ago
> What do you propose to replace CSS with I don't think I need to have a solution prepared to define a problem? > How will it avoid the problems you perceive with CSS while still being useful? How did <insert any language> replace <insert any older language> while still being useful? This is kind of what I mean when talking about CSS. For whatever reason, all of the innovation, invention, tinkering, progress that went into _every other aspect of software_ just gets forgotten about with regard to CSS? This idea that CSS is the perfect solution, or close enough that there's no reason to invent something radically different. We're on our 5000th Javascript build tool but we still just have terrible old CSS. > and never had a reasonable answer. Completely reasonable answer: I have no idea, it's not my responsibility to create a solution. CSS is enough of a problem that I just generally refuse to use it. I'm not alone in this.
- chrismorgan 3y ago
  What do you even find wrong with CSS? You haven’t defined the problem at all.
  - alex_lav 3y ago
    1. Positioning (yes even with flex) is unintuitive and painful 2. The fact that the !important tag exists, and at a broader level the fact that cascading exists 3. The community seems pretty hellbent on rejecting working solutions for being "bad". float: left is "bad". And yet, many/any other positioning systems are, to me, much worse. So to me, it's all "bad". Similarly, tables are the easiest way to position things correctly (since point 1, all other positioning tools are pretty bad), and yet, table-based-layouts are "bad". So again, it's all "bad". More elegantly put: - https://adamwathan.me/css-utility-classes-and-separation-of-concerns/ https://adamwathan.me/css-utility-classes-and-separation-of-... - If you search "What's wrong with CSS y combinator", you'll get some derivative of this exact conversation over and over again for the past 15 years. CSS people saying "no it's good!", many other types of people saying "it's just too complicated and I don't want to keep doing it", followed by css people saying "no it's good!" I think Tailwind is probably the closest approximation to tolerable CSS, but I also think its existence highlights a greater problem with both the community and the technology.