9 ms·

This is a prison in Norway: https://thenorwayguide.com/norwegian-prisons/ https://thenorwayguide.com/norwegian-prisons/ > The rate of recidivism in Norway is a

This is a prison in Norway: https://thenorwayguide.com/norwegian-prisons/ https://thenorwayguide.com/norwegian-prisons/ > The rate of recidivism in Norway is around 20%. So only 1 in 5 end up back in prison, while the majority of people (4 in 5) don’t return to prison within a few years. > This is a sharp contrast to even the neighbor countries like Sweden with 61% and Denmark with 63%. American prisons tend to have around 60 – 75 % in most states, but it varies a lot by state. And here is a NYT article on the same prison: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/the-radical-humaneness-of-norways-halden-prison.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/the-radical-huma...

marginalia_nu 3y ago
To be fair, Norway is also an incredibly wealthy country that can afford to do things that many other countries simply can't.
- alphager 3y ago
  This would be a valid reason when compared to a third world country, but not to the country with the seventh highest GDP per capita (Norway is fifth).
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    GDP/capita isn't really everything. Norway's got an enormous sovereign wealth fund with decades of oil money.
    - robmccoll 3y ago
      Someone should tell that to our government. Meanwhile we've (USA) been taking spending shortcuts and borrowing against our future to enable GDP growth over the same time period with no return in sight.
      - ethbr0 3y ago
        The USD is a world trade and reserve currency. If you don't run deficits, the monetary supply part of that system gets a bit wonky. The Norwegian krone is used more than other currencies (oil), but isn't nearly the same.
- 0xFF0123 3y ago
  For comparison: Norway GDP per capita: 89k USD USA GDP per capita: 70k USD Norway GNI per capita: 83k PPP USA GNI per capita: 70k PPP
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    You also need to consider this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...
- orangepurple 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - nathan_compton 3y ago
    Just come out and say it, coward.
    - korroziya 3y ago
      [dead]
  - hfkwer 3y ago
    Can you elaborate? Why would people in Norway have "better control over impulsivity"?
    - korroziya 3y ago
      [dead]
  - sandos 3y ago
    As a Swede, I agree. Even official reports agree with this nowadays. 10 years or so ago it was not ok to even breath a word about this in Sweden, nothing bad came from immigration, but with the success of the right-wing Svergigdemokraterna it became a lot more ok to talk about systemic problems in Sweden.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      "Now that literally the nazi party has become mainstream it's ok to say this stuff" is certainly... a statement....
    - jakobnissen 3y ago
      It's not enough to agree. You'll have to actually show evidence of what OP was hinting. To remind you, he was hinting that Norway's better recidivism rates than Denmark and Sweden was due to its people. So: Can you show any such evidence? Because from where I sit, it certainly looks like Norway has more African and middle easters immigrants than Denmark, but still have more of them employed and have lower recidivism rates. So.... Where do you get it from?
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  Compared to the US?
- Retric 3y ago
  Norway is being compared to other very wealthy countries here.
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    Not really. Norway has oil money. It's basically Scandinavian Saudi Arabia (but less off the rails).
    - Retric 3y ago
      Norway’s per capita GDP is close to the US. It peaks higher, but is more volatile depending on oil prices. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-capita https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-cap... https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-per-capita https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-...
      - marginalia_nu 3y ago
        Norway also has trillions of dollars in its sovereign wealth fund. Like they could all stop working tomorrow and be fine for a couple of years living off their national savings account.
        Retric 3y ago
        The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures. Yes, having savings is useful but that’s largely offset up the high costs of being so far north.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures. No, they aren’t (except that the production that produces them is, for domestic investments), because investment returns aren’t finished goods and services, and GDP is the aggregate value of finished goods and services produced. Counting investment returns on top of that would be double counting for domestic investment, and counting something completely outside for foreign investments.
- UtopiaPunk 3y ago
  But is it the wealthiest country?
- Broken_Hippo 3y ago
  There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country. The US has oil money of its own that it could invest. The US already spends a great deal on the prison system. This would just be spending some of that money differently. One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that.
  - polski-g 3y ago
    Norway is able to put less people in prison because less people in Norway commit crime. The murder rate in the United States is almost 15 times greater.
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    > One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that. Norway is able to put fewer people in prison because it puts more emphasis on crime prevention. The US chose a different path a long time ago, probably even as far back as the war on drugs. It's going to be very hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube again, if that's even possible.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country. Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous? That may be a pretty important factor that may contribute to making their policy choices work. Similarly, isn't it a welfare state? That could also play a pretty significant role, too.
    - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
      Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous? I dunno. I'm an immigrant here, and my view might be skewed. That said, my own life has more diversity than it ever did in the US - I'm from the midwest. More types of folks. And I don't live in Oslo. That's no real reason that jails in the US can't be better and actually treat people like people that are going to live next door to you in the future. Being diverse isn't a reason to give long jail sentences or avoid jail/prison for more things. You certainly don't need a homogenous culture to do that sort of thing. And yes, it is a welfare state, which means there are slightly fewer desperate people. I don't view that as a good thing - some of the folks here would just be left to die in the US. Some things also just mean a less stressful life - you know, like health care not making you go broke. It isn't perfect, mind you, and folks still fall through the cracks, but I'm sure it helps.
- wafflemaker 3y ago
  Not the wealth plays major role here, but relatively small difference between richest and poorest people, that makes crime rates quite low in Norway. Having people in prison for a shorter period is still cheaper than having them come back again and again. For smaller crimes people are allowed to go home for the evenings/weekends and the biggest punishment really is loosing the ability to work. I guess that this can prevent people from completely loosing touch with outside world which makes it easier to go back to a normal life. Example article on crimes vs equality. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-stark-relationship-between-income-inequality-and-crime https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-star...
- SuoDuanDao 3y ago
  Spending more to reduce recidivism is like insulating your house - if you think you can't afford it, you probably can't afford not to do it.
mdgrech23 3y ago
I feel like a big part of it boils down to why steal/do illegal shit when you don't have to. In a place like Norway so many of your needs are going to be taken care of by the state.
LatteLazy 3y ago
That's nice, but before you raise prisoners' standard of living to that, you have to do it for everyone. I would like that. But that is often missed in these debates...
jakobnissen 3y ago
According to Denmark's Statistics, recidivism was 32% from 2018-2020 when considering crime within 2 years of getting out of prison.
thejackgoode 3y ago
Even without US specifics, prison systems seem to not have adapted to the declined birth rate. Maybe the luxury of measuring the system by recidivism rate is more affordable for societies now.
NDizzle 3y ago
If the US split up prisoners by race, only then could you compare it to Scandinavian prisons. But then we'd have a different article, talking about yet a different injustice.

marginalia_nu 3y ago

To be fair, Norway is also an incredibly wealthy country that can afford to do things that many other countries simply can't.

alphager 3y ago
This would be a valid reason when compared to a third world country, but not to the country with the seventh highest GDP per capita (Norway is fifth).
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  GDP/capita isn't really everything. Norway's got an enormous sovereign wealth fund with decades of oil money.
  - robmccoll 3y ago
    Someone should tell that to our government. Meanwhile we've (USA) been taking spending shortcuts and borrowing against our future to enable GDP growth over the same time period with no return in sight.
    - ethbr0 3y ago
      The USD is a world trade and reserve currency. If you don't run deficits, the monetary supply part of that system gets a bit wonky. The Norwegian krone is used more than other currencies (oil), but isn't nearly the same.
0xFF0123 3y ago
For comparison: Norway GDP per capita: 89k USD USA GDP per capita: 70k USD Norway GNI per capita: 83k PPP USA GNI per capita: 70k PPP
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  You also need to consider this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Nor...
orangepurple 3y ago
[flagged]
- nathan_compton 3y ago
  Just come out and say it, coward.
  - korroziya 3y ago
    [dead]
- hfkwer 3y ago
  Can you elaborate? Why would people in Norway have "better control over impulsivity"?
  - korroziya 3y ago
    [dead]
- sandos 3y ago
  As a Swede, I agree. Even official reports agree with this nowadays. 10 years or so ago it was not ok to even breath a word about this in Sweden, nothing bad came from immigration, but with the success of the right-wing Svergigdemokraterna it became a lot more ok to talk about systemic problems in Sweden.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    "Now that literally the nazi party has become mainstream it's ok to say this stuff" is certainly... a statement....
  - jakobnissen 3y ago
    It's not enough to agree. You'll have to actually show evidence of what OP was hinting. To remind you, he was hinting that Norway's better recidivism rates than Denmark and Sweden was due to its people. So: Can you show any such evidence? Because from where I sit, it certainly looks like Norway has more African and middle easters immigrants than Denmark, but still have more of them employed and have lower recidivism rates. So.... Where do you get it from?
manuelabeledo 3y ago
Compared to the US?
Retric 3y ago
Norway is being compared to other very wealthy countries here.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  Not really. Norway has oil money. It's basically Scandinavian Saudi Arabia (but less off the rails).
  - Retric 3y ago
    Norway’s per capita GDP is close to the US. It peaks higher, but is more volatile depending on oil prices. https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-capita https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NOR/norway/gdp-per-cap... https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-per-capita https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-...
    - marginalia_nu 3y ago
      Norway also has trillions of dollars in its sovereign wealth fund. Like they could all stop working tomorrow and be fine for a couple of years living off their national savings account.
      - Retric 3y ago
        The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures. Yes, having savings is useful but that’s largely offset up the high costs of being so far north.
        dragonwriter 3y ago
        > The returns from that sovereign wealth fund are already included in the GDP figures. No, they aren’t (except that the production that produces them is, for domestic investments), because investment returns aren’t finished goods and services, and GDP is the aggregate value of finished goods and services produced. Counting investment returns on top of that would be double counting for domestic investment, and counting something completely outside for foreign investments.
UtopiaPunk 3y ago
But is it the wealthiest country?
Broken_Hippo 3y ago
There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country. The US has oil money of its own that it could invest. The US already spends a great deal on the prison system. This would just be spending some of that money differently. One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that.
- polski-g 3y ago
  Norway is able to put less people in prison because less people in Norway commit crime. The murder rate in the United States is almost 15 times greater.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  > One could start by not putting as many folks in prisons and jails. You don't have to be a wealthy country to do that. Norway is able to put fewer people in prison because it puts more emphasis on crime prevention. The US chose a different path a long time ago, probably even as far back as the war on drugs. It's going to be very hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube again, if that's even possible.
- tivert 3y ago
  > There is no reason that the US can't do this. The US is a wealthy country. Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous? That may be a pretty important factor that may contribute to making their policy choices work. Similarly, isn't it a welfare state? That could also play a pretty significant role, too.
  - Broken_Hippo 3y ago
    Besides being wealthy, isn't Norway pretty culturally/ethnically homogeneous? I dunno. I'm an immigrant here, and my view might be skewed. That said, my own life has more diversity than it ever did in the US - I'm from the midwest. More types of folks. And I don't live in Oslo. That's no real reason that jails in the US can't be better and actually treat people like people that are going to live next door to you in the future. Being diverse isn't a reason to give long jail sentences or avoid jail/prison for more things. You certainly don't need a homogenous culture to do that sort of thing. And yes, it is a welfare state, which means there are slightly fewer desperate people. I don't view that as a good thing - some of the folks here would just be left to die in the US. Some things also just mean a less stressful life - you know, like health care not making you go broke. It isn't perfect, mind you, and folks still fall through the cracks, but I'm sure it helps.
wafflemaker 3y ago
Not the wealth plays major role here, but relatively small difference between richest and poorest people, that makes crime rates quite low in Norway. Having people in prison for a shorter period is still cheaper than having them come back again and again. For smaller crimes people are allowed to go home for the evenings/weekends and the biggest punishment really is loosing the ability to work. I guess that this can prevent people from completely loosing touch with outside world which makes it easier to go back to a normal life. Example article on crimes vs equality. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-stark-relationship-between-income-inequality-and-crime https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/06/07/the-star...
SuoDuanDao 3y ago
Spending more to reduce recidivism is like insulating your house - if you think you can't afford it, you probably can't afford not to do it.

mdgrech23 3y ago

I feel like a big part of it boils down to why steal/do illegal shit when you don't have to. In a place like Norway so many of your needs are going to be taken care of by the state.

LatteLazy 3y ago

That's nice, but before you raise prisoners' standard of living to that, you have to do it for everyone. I would like that. But that is often missed in these debates...

jakobnissen 3y ago

According to Denmark's Statistics, recidivism was 32% from 2018-2020 when considering crime within 2 years of getting out of prison.

thejackgoode 3y ago

Even without US specifics, prison systems seem to not have adapted to the declined birth rate. Maybe the luxury of measuring the system by recidivism rate is more affordable for societies now.

NDizzle 3y ago

If the US split up prisoners by race, only then could you compare it to Scandinavian prisons. But then we'd have a different article, talking about yet a different injustice.