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>>This means people can live within walking distance to where they work and where they shop, so they do just that: walk through quiet streets, often surrounded

>>This means people can live within walking distance to where they work and where they shop, so they do just that: walk through quiet streets, often surrounded with trees. it would take more than changing zoning laws for that, as I understand changing jobs and such is not as common in these locations as well. If you are changing jobs every couple of years having to find a home in the same neighborhood as your new job may be a challenge. Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block...

david-gpu 3y ago
> Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block... And I prefer not living with constant traffic noise and at risk of being run over every time I step outside. I prefer biking with my kid to his school, but we can't because the traffic makes it a suicidal idea. I also prefer to listen to birds when I walk to the shops nearby, but the traffic noise drowns them. Yet, here we are.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Yes here we are, Here we are were the majority have self selected to live in the way I prefer, but people want to use government violence (i.e regulation) to force people to live in a manner they did not self select. I have no problems if people want to create something voluntarily that is walkable, I have massive problems with using government to do it.
  - elieri 3y ago
    Is it not equal "government violence," then, to make illegal buildings without a certain number of parking spaces attached, or that take up more than a certain percentage of the lot area, or have more than a certain number of units, or would add a café or corner store to a residential zone? Your preferred development patterns are the government-enforced ones, currently.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      I prefer no zoning at all, so yes requiring parking is equally bad as requiring walkablity
  - boron1006 3y ago
    What are you talking about? We are in this position precisely because of government regulation prioritizing cars. Most of American cities are still only zoned for SFH within the city limits. It’s nearly impossible to build in any other way because of regulation. Not to mention the many many subsidies for the auto industry. The thing that frustrates me most about libertarians is how everything they don’t want is regulation or government spending, but everything they do want is provided by the grace of god or something.
  - yamtaddle 3y ago
    > Here we are were the majority have self selected to live in the way I prefer, Not everyone who lives the "way you prefer" wants it. It's just the only place that decent-or-better public schools are, in a lot of US cities. Everything else about the 'burbs sucks. Worst parts of country and city living, none of the benefits of either. Terrible.
  - david-gpu 3y ago
    > I prefer, but people want to use government violence (i.e regulation) to force people to live in a manner they did not self select. [...] I have massive problems with using government to do it. We are on the same page, then. In most of American and Canadian cities municipal zoning bylaws force the construction of single-family homes and disallow the construction of mixed-use moderate density buildings. With that in mind, one may begin to wonder if the reason we don't see more walkable neighborhoods is because they are currently illegal to build, not because there is no demand for them. And, indeed, there is plenty of demand for them.
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
> Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block... I live in a mid-sized European city, and I have literally dozens of shops within 10-minute walking distance of home, as well as several banks, primary and high school, health center, several playgrounds, parks, gyms, plenty of bars and restaurants, etc.
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  >> dozens of shops Do they all sell the same goods, or do you have "dozens of shops" that all specialize in a few things, like you have a bakery, coffee shop, produce shop, butcher,hardware store, etc all as independent shops Or do you have a Kroger, Mejier, Walmart, HEB, Lowes, and HomeDepot style shopping all with in walking distance...
  - Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
    Even if you focus on a category of shops what I said is still true, for most categories. Dozens of food shops, dozens of bakeries, dozens of fruit shops, dozens of clothes shops, dozens of supermarkets, maybe 5 or 6 hardware stores.
numpad0 3y ago
Trees are harder but I think noise can be mitigated at personal levels, you just have to avoid 国道沿い(kokudo zoi, "along highways") and 線路沿い(senro zoi, "along rails") apartments. Tokyo is an impacted and upscaled melon skin, edges of Voronoi cells being roads and scars being rails. Towards the center of cells are quieter.

david-gpu 3y ago

> Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block... And I prefer not living with constant traffic noise and at risk of being run over every time I step outside. I prefer biking with my kid to his school, but we can't because the traffic makes it a suicidal idea. I also prefer to listen to birds when I walk to the shops nearby, but the traffic noise drowns them. Yet, here we are.

phpisthebest 3y ago
Yes here we are, Here we are were the majority have self selected to live in the way I prefer, but people want to use government violence (i.e regulation) to force people to live in a manner they did not self select. I have no problems if people want to create something voluntarily that is walkable, I have massive problems with using government to do it.
- elieri 3y ago
  Is it not equal "government violence," then, to make illegal buildings without a certain number of parking spaces attached, or that take up more than a certain percentage of the lot area, or have more than a certain number of units, or would add a café or corner store to a residential zone? Your preferred development patterns are the government-enforced ones, currently.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    I prefer no zoning at all, so yes requiring parking is equally bad as requiring walkablity
- boron1006 3y ago
  What are you talking about? We are in this position precisely because of government regulation prioritizing cars. Most of American cities are still only zoned for SFH within the city limits. It’s nearly impossible to build in any other way because of regulation. Not to mention the many many subsidies for the auto industry. The thing that frustrates me most about libertarians is how everything they don’t want is regulation or government spending, but everything they do want is provided by the grace of god or something.
- yamtaddle 3y ago
  > Here we are were the majority have self selected to live in the way I prefer, Not everyone who lives the "way you prefer" wants it. It's just the only place that decent-or-better public schools are, in a lot of US cities. Everything else about the 'burbs sucks. Worst parts of country and city living, none of the benefits of either. Terrible.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  > I prefer, but people want to use government violence (i.e regulation) to force people to live in a manner they did not self select. [...] I have massive problems with using government to do it. We are on the same page, then. In most of American and Canadian cities municipal zoning bylaws force the construction of single-family homes and disallow the construction of mixed-use moderate density buildings. With that in mind, one may begin to wonder if the reason we don't see more walkable neighborhoods is because they are currently illegal to build, not because there is no demand for them. And, indeed, there is plenty of demand for them.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

> Also I prefer not be limited in my shopping choices just to the single shop that happens to be in my building or on my block... I live in a mid-sized European city, and I have literally dozens of shops within 10-minute walking distance of home, as well as several banks, primary and high school, health center, several playgrounds, parks, gyms, plenty of bars and restaurants, etc.

phpisthebest 3y ago
>> dozens of shops Do they all sell the same goods, or do you have "dozens of shops" that all specialize in a few things, like you have a bakery, coffee shop, produce shop, butcher,hardware store, etc all as independent shops Or do you have a Kroger, Mejier, Walmart, HEB, Lowes, and HomeDepot style shopping all with in walking distance...
- Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
  Even if you focus on a category of shops what I said is still true, for most categories. Dozens of food shops, dozens of bakeries, dozens of fruit shops, dozens of clothes shops, dozens of supermarkets, maybe 5 or 6 hardware stores.

numpad0 3y ago

Trees are harder but I think noise can be mitigated at personal levels, you just have to avoid 国道沿い(kokudo zoi, "along highways") and 線路沿い(senro zoi, "along rails") apartments. Tokyo is an impacted and upscaled melon skin, edges of Voronoi cells being roads and scars being rails. Towards the center of cells are quieter.