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This is interesting, but the amount of flavor that the yeast provides make it basically impossible to taste the ale as it was, without having access to the orig

This is interesting, but the amount of flavor that the yeast provides make it basically impossible to taste the ale as it was, without having access to the original strain. This time period predates the understanding of microbes, there was just some essence that needed to be moved from one ferment to the next (flocculated yeast, basically a yeast starter.) There are a few old yeast strains, like the Trappist beer strains that are specific to each monastery, left over from this time period, and that specific yeast MAKES the flavor of those amazing beers.

2-718-281-828 3y ago
Yeast mostly turns water and sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide. What flavors are you expecting to differ? Serious question - I know yeast will also produce vinegeary substances. Also in medieval times people used to infuse beer with mushrooms, herbs, plants - often psychoactive. I'd argue that this might very well have contributed the dominant taste component.
- TrueSlacker0 3y ago
  Yeast is one of the most influential flavor creators in a fermented beverage. It would have huge effects on the final beer. But since sanitation was low, bacteria probably had a huge effect (acidic sourness) as well. Take the same base recipe from the article and ferment it with a hefewizen (banana and/or clove flavors and a resulting yeast in suspension haze), Belgian strain ( bubblegum all the way to barnyard aroma), wine yeast, bread yeast or as they mentioned the lambic yeast (resulting in a slight sourness) and you would have totally different beers. Modern brewers have access to hundreds of different strains just for beer, resulting in different flavors from each. In simple terms vinegar comes from bacteria and yeast. Yeast eats the sugar making alcohol, Bacteria eats the alcohol and makes acids. Kombucha style. Eventually resulting in vinegar.
- mrmincent 3y ago
  There is a saying that brewers make the wort (unfermented beer), and yeast makes the beer. You could have the same wort and use two different strains of yeast and end up with markedly different beers.
- donavanm 3y ago
  A huge amount of flavor comes feom the different esters, which are associated with different yests and techniques https://winning-homebrew.com/esters-in-beer.html https://winning-homebrew.com/esters-in-beer.html
- retrac 3y ago
  Yeast also dies, and then is broken down, and consumed by the other yeast. Yeast also consumes other proteins and sugars in the fermenting liquid. It leaves behind a protein-enriched liquid with a unique taste. It's actually a useful culinary trick in general; allow some yeast to grow aggressively and then boil it. If you concentrate it, you end up with something much like sold commercially as Vegemite or Marmite. It's savoury and tangy. Often described as mushroom-like. Can be used to thicken, and otherwise add some flavour to, a flat stew or sauce. Different yeasts eat themselves, and metabolize sugar, with different efficiencies and slightly different chemical pathways. It would not surprise me if this has an effect on the overall end product. Anecdotally, based on my cousin's home brewing experiments, beers brewed with standard baking yeast compared to specialized brewing yeasts are significantly "yeastier" tasting -- they start to die at relatively low alcohol concentrations and so more yeast mass ends up in the final product, I think.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    > they start to die at relatively low alcohol concentrations and so more yeast mass ends up in the final product up until that very insightful. but this seems rather counter logical. if the yeast dies earlier it grows less and hence mass should be also less. having said that i guess less yeast activity means more sugar and starch in the final product.
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      There are tons of living yeast after a fermentation. Once the sugar content goes down and they’ve converted the long chain fermentables, they go into sleep mode. I re-use my yeast, I have about 10x more yeast after a ferment than I threw in at the start. They are very much alive.
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      Most beers are not considered finished if they are hazy, dead yeast or byproduct do not end up in the finished beer except for a few styles that allow it.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  Yeast is really the main flavor producing element in beer/ale that is lightly hopped and with relatively lightly roasted malt. You can get drastically different flavors with the exact same grain and hop bill just by changing the yeast, and then furthermore changing the yeast pitch rate, temperature of fermentation, etc. Most of what we perceive as flavor in beer, floral notes, spicy notes, even banana flavor or “horse blanket” which is a real funk flavor for some English beers comes from the microbes. Even in the heavily hopped modern IPAs, the yeast do incredible things to what goes into the fermenter. If you’ve ever sampled “wort” (beer before fermentation) you’ll know what I mean. It’s foul. Hop water tastes like bong water. Yeast turn this into bright mango, pineapple, papaya flavors.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    > If you’ve ever sampled “wort” (beer before fermentation) you’ll know what I mean. It’s foul. Hop water tastes like bong water. are you kidding? that's one of my highlights when brewing to sip from the wort. it tastes sweet and delicious. i love it.
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      I hate it, I love the smell but the raw hop flavor… ugh. I just can’t stand it. I also don’t love a lot of the dry hopped with high hop weight per barrel IPAs, there is this hop burn skunk flavor under the taste that I can’t ignore. For example Galaxy I usually avoid if I see it on a label because many people leave it on too long and it gets that hop burn. I’ve talked to people who brew with it well and they leave it in contact for 24 hours or less. Not sure what that process actually looks like since it’s added during primary fermentation.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        well, okay, I was talking about the wort before hop is added - while cooking the malt or right after filtering it off.
- MarkMarine 3y ago
  If you’re at all interested in this, try home brewing. You’re going to learn that most of what you think you know about yeast is very wrong
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    i've been brewing about a dozen times. but only from kits. doing everything from start to finish. but the yeast is provided. i just assumed it's basically an optimized baking yeast. also when talking to professional brewers they never really get into the yeast but talk about hop all day long. so i assumed that's where it's at.
    - MarkMarine 3y ago
      Brew yourself some Saison. You’ll get pepper flavors from the most boring grain bill and hop choices you’ve ever seen. As you get further into brewing, and more expertise, you’ll end up caring more and more about yeast. If you’re chatting with pro brewers, usually if you’re there with a sanitized mason jar when they are harvesting yeast, they’ll give you some of their strain if it’s not something secret. Then end up with way more than they can use. You can go down the rabbit hole trying to figure out what the best brewers use, like Trillium brewing. There are rumors but they sure won’t admit it, the yeast is the secret sauce, the hops are on the label.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        i'm an all-round serious fun guy anyway - so yeast is right up my alley
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

2-718-281-828 3y ago

Yeast mostly turns water and sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide. What flavors are you expecting to differ? Serious question - I know yeast will also produce vinegeary substances. Also in medieval times people used to infuse beer with mushrooms, herbs, plants - often psychoactive. I'd argue that this might very well have contributed the dominant taste component.

TrueSlacker0 3y ago
Yeast is one of the most influential flavor creators in a fermented beverage. It would have huge effects on the final beer. But since sanitation was low, bacteria probably had a huge effect (acidic sourness) as well. Take the same base recipe from the article and ferment it with a hefewizen (banana and/or clove flavors and a resulting yeast in suspension haze), Belgian strain ( bubblegum all the way to barnyard aroma), wine yeast, bread yeast or as they mentioned the lambic yeast (resulting in a slight sourness) and you would have totally different beers. Modern brewers have access to hundreds of different strains just for beer, resulting in different flavors from each. In simple terms vinegar comes from bacteria and yeast. Yeast eats the sugar making alcohol, Bacteria eats the alcohol and makes acids. Kombucha style. Eventually resulting in vinegar.
mrmincent 3y ago
There is a saying that brewers make the wort (unfermented beer), and yeast makes the beer. You could have the same wort and use two different strains of yeast and end up with markedly different beers.
donavanm 3y ago
A huge amount of flavor comes feom the different esters, which are associated with different yests and techniques https://winning-homebrew.com/esters-in-beer.html https://winning-homebrew.com/esters-in-beer.html
retrac 3y ago
Yeast also dies, and then is broken down, and consumed by the other yeast. Yeast also consumes other proteins and sugars in the fermenting liquid. It leaves behind a protein-enriched liquid with a unique taste. It's actually a useful culinary trick in general; allow some yeast to grow aggressively and then boil it. If you concentrate it, you end up with something much like sold commercially as Vegemite or Marmite. It's savoury and tangy. Often described as mushroom-like. Can be used to thicken, and otherwise add some flavour to, a flat stew or sauce. Different yeasts eat themselves, and metabolize sugar, with different efficiencies and slightly different chemical pathways. It would not surprise me if this has an effect on the overall end product. Anecdotally, based on my cousin's home brewing experiments, beers brewed with standard baking yeast compared to specialized brewing yeasts are significantly "yeastier" tasting -- they start to die at relatively low alcohol concentrations and so more yeast mass ends up in the final product, I think.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  > they start to die at relatively low alcohol concentrations and so more yeast mass ends up in the final product up until that very insightful. but this seems rather counter logical. if the yeast dies earlier it grows less and hence mass should be also less. having said that i guess less yeast activity means more sugar and starch in the final product.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    There are tons of living yeast after a fermentation. Once the sugar content goes down and they’ve converted the long chain fermentables, they go into sleep mode. I re-use my yeast, I have about 10x more yeast after a ferment than I threw in at the start. They are very much alive.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    Most beers are not considered finished if they are hazy, dead yeast or byproduct do not end up in the finished beer except for a few styles that allow it.
MarkMarine 3y ago
Yeast is really the main flavor producing element in beer/ale that is lightly hopped and with relatively lightly roasted malt. You can get drastically different flavors with the exact same grain and hop bill just by changing the yeast, and then furthermore changing the yeast pitch rate, temperature of fermentation, etc. Most of what we perceive as flavor in beer, floral notes, spicy notes, even banana flavor or “horse blanket” which is a real funk flavor for some English beers comes from the microbes. Even in the heavily hopped modern IPAs, the yeast do incredible things to what goes into the fermenter. If you’ve ever sampled “wort” (beer before fermentation) you’ll know what I mean. It’s foul. Hop water tastes like bong water. Yeast turn this into bright mango, pineapple, papaya flavors.
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  > If you’ve ever sampled “wort” (beer before fermentation) you’ll know what I mean. It’s foul. Hop water tastes like bong water. are you kidding? that's one of my highlights when brewing to sip from the wort. it tastes sweet and delicious. i love it.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    I hate it, I love the smell but the raw hop flavor… ugh. I just can’t stand it. I also don’t love a lot of the dry hopped with high hop weight per barrel IPAs, there is this hop burn skunk flavor under the taste that I can’t ignore. For example Galaxy I usually avoid if I see it on a label because many people leave it on too long and it gets that hop burn. I’ve talked to people who brew with it well and they leave it in contact for 24 hours or less. Not sure what that process actually looks like since it’s added during primary fermentation.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      well, okay, I was talking about the wort before hop is added - while cooking the malt or right after filtering it off.
MarkMarine 3y ago
If you’re at all interested in this, try home brewing. You’re going to learn that most of what you think you know about yeast is very wrong
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  i've been brewing about a dozen times. but only from kits. doing everything from start to finish. but the yeast is provided. i just assumed it's basically an optimized baking yeast. also when talking to professional brewers they never really get into the yeast but talk about hop all day long. so i assumed that's where it's at.
  - MarkMarine 3y ago
    Brew yourself some Saison. You’ll get pepper flavors from the most boring grain bill and hop choices you’ve ever seen. As you get further into brewing, and more expertise, you’ll end up caring more and more about yeast. If you’re chatting with pro brewers, usually if you’re there with a sanitized mason jar when they are harvesting yeast, they’ll give you some of their strain if it’s not something secret. Then end up with way more than they can use. You can go down the rabbit hole trying to figure out what the best brewers use, like Trillium brewing. There are rumors but they sure won’t admit it, the yeast is the secret sauce, the hops are on the label.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      i'm an all-round serious fun guy anyway - so yeast is right up my alley
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]