4 ms·

When journalists say they're different from bloggers, what they're talking about is the kind of navel-gazing bullshit that Gruber spends half his time on here —

When journalists say they're different from bloggers, what they're talking about is the kind of navel-gazing bullshit that Gruber spends half his time on here — describing the event itself, and his presence and experience there, making sure the reader knows that he was among only a few dozen people invited to this exclusive one-on-one press briefing. A more competent writer would have spent maybe a sentence or two explaining the novelty of the briefing and then moved on. Gruber spends four paragraphs. I don't need to know that they gave him free coffee, or that the chair was comfortable. The whole thing comes off as sickeningly conceited.

barumrho 15y ago
I think you missed the point of this post.
ebbv 15y ago
> The whole thing comes off as sickeningly conceited. So like a typical Gruber piece, right?
eykanal 15y ago
For what it's worth, and focusing on this isn't worth much at all, I read it completely differently. Gruber was trying to convey a sense of how different this is from the Apple of days gone by. He's trying to demonstrate that Apple has gone from having huge keynotes at Macworld to having medium-size keynotes in their own auditoriums to having one-on-ones with key members of the press. The point isn't "look at how awesome I am", the point is "look at how completely different this is from everything they've ever done in the past".
greyish_water 15y ago
Whereas what you've written...
gecko 15y ago
I don't think that's quite true. If you read stories in the New Yorker, or the Atlantic, or similar publications, then you'd find equally "naval-gazing" writing from "real" reporters. When I write a post, or when a journalist writes a story, or when you write a comment, you want to have an angle: something that sets your writing apart from the other thirty people who are writing about the same thing. Many publications today will cover detailed information about Mountain Lion. Gruber knows that. Further, there's not actually much new in Mountain Lion: Gruber successfully summarizes the new release in a handful of words in a middle paragraph. While I suppose he could go into more detail on interface minutia between Contacts and Address Book, or pontificate on why Notification Center on OS X looks more like Growl and less like the iOS pull-down, even doing that would provide him relatively little material. Instead, Gruber focused on the culture of the event. From a company so well known for massive product releases and on-stage demos, the idea of doing not just one, but a large number of in-person demos across the country represents a substantial shift. It could symbolize any number of things, from a lack of confidence to a desire to repair image damage from Foxconn, which is why Gruber finds a need to emphasize how polished the presentation was and how the event was set-up in detail. I can understand why this might feel like naval gazing, but to me, it's anything but. Gruber is in a unique position to comment on the cultural shifts of Apple, precisely because he's so involved with that selfsame culture. If he's going to comment on Mountain Lion's release this morning, that's going to be his angle. It's completely fine if you don't find it interesting, but questioning his competency, or calling this approach conceited, is wrong.
- krschultz 15y ago
  In fairness, the New Yorker might spend the same length of page navel gazing, but the story as a whole is 10x longer.
bjcy 15y ago
I don't think that Gruber would argue that this piece falls into what we would call stereotypical journalism. It's not a piece that purports to be a View From Nowhere. I think that this piece is akin to pieces you might read in the New Yorker or the Atlantic, in that you see a writer's analysis of a topic or event through their experience, both past and present. It's doubtful that Gruber is rubbing this in all of our faces. More likely, he's noting it's novelty as a change (or a confirmation, really) of Apple's motivations. Gruber is a competent writer. His pieces exhibit voice and clarity, though you might disagree with him (I often do), but a contrary opinion is no less competent for its, well, contrariness. That's the spirit of HN. If you disagree with someone but they challenge you and add value to the discussion, you upvote and challenge back, sharpening both of your stances.
- astrodust 15y ago
  I liked the perspective on this one. The OS itself? Yadda yadda. That will be covered in excruciating detail through the next news cycle. The event, though, will probably be glossed over. Describing things like this is a way of seeing into the machine and finding out how it works. This kind of event marks an interesting departure from previous WWDC-type promotions. It's an important thing in and of itself.
  - BrandonM 15y ago
    I totally agree. I'm not a Gruber fan and I've never owned a Mac, but I was still interested in his analysis of why they held the meetings in the fashion they did. Letting us in on some of Apple's inner workings and their collective "thought process" is a valuable service to readers.
- roc 15y ago
  That was my feeling. If you know Apple, you know there's no question you can ask that they'll answer with any more information than they wanted to reveal and put into that presentation. So digging is pointless. And writing an article full of unanswered questions wouldn't serve any purpose beyond trying to impress us all with the writer's cleverness. You can't differentiate yourself that way. Further, a dozen other sites were getting this presentation, with the same embargo date and they were going to write the articles that their audiences expected. So absent a unique take that might interest Gruber's particular audience, there'd have been no point to his writing anything. If not this sort of approach, he might as well have just linked to Engadget and called it a day.
tonetheman 15y ago
Yes exactly. It is this type of "I am cool and you are not" that runs rampant in this and everything else he writes. I use apple products and find it mildly interesting they are releasing a new OS version. I could care less that this asshat got free coffee.
suchire 15y ago
Or, you know, the difference between headline-writing, bullet-point, "breaking news" "journalists" and the journalists that write long-form investigative reports, in-depth stories, and other less "news-y" pieces that flesh out things like atmosphere and details.
roc 15y ago
I think you were looking for something that Gruber never set out to write. That is, you wanted to read something like the article that Engadget wrote (from what I would guess was the same presentation and early access). But Gruber has never really been that guy. And I don't think that's ever been a secret. You could drop this criticism on any of his longer-form pieces and making it just makes me wonder why you bother reading him.
dchest 15y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_nonfiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_nonfiction There are many genres of journalism. It's true that Gruber is not Reuters. It doesn't mean that he's not a journalist (even if he doesn't say so himself).
- beatpanda 15y ago
  I don't think any of these things are apt comparisons to what Gruber does. In narrative journalism, the author includes personal details that add something to the story or reveal a greater truth about whatever they're writing. Gruber, on the other hand, just wants you to know how cool he is.
  - dchest 15y ago
    gecko's reply above explains what you seem to miss from this Gruber's writing.
rickmb 15y ago
Methinks that for a critique of someone's writing this is the wrong forum. Which wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that shooting the messenger and/or his writing style seems to be a treatment exclusively reserved for Gruber. These kneejerk reactions to one particular blogger are pathetic and belong on Reddit, not HN.
- Volpe 15y ago
  Really... didn't pg himself do exactly that RE: TechCrunch and Curebit ripping off 37signals (among others) designs. Seems like just a reality of the tech world, everyone just discredits everyone else in the hope of increasing the value of their own portfolio/brand/whatever.
lwat 15y ago
Oh look, it's the compulsory Gruber bashing comment.
napierzaza 15y ago
At least he has a better story than his fantastic elevator ride with an Apple Exec.

barumrho 15y ago

I think you missed the point of this post.

ebbv 15y ago

> The whole thing comes off as sickeningly conceited. So like a typical Gruber piece, right?

eykanal 15y ago

For what it's worth, and focusing on this isn't worth much at all, I read it completely differently. Gruber was trying to convey a sense of how different this is from the Apple of days gone by. He's trying to demonstrate that Apple has gone from having huge keynotes at Macworld to having medium-size keynotes in their own auditoriums to having one-on-ones with key members of the press. The point isn't "look at how awesome I am", the point is "look at how completely different this is from everything they've ever done in the past".

greyish_water 15y ago

Whereas what you've written...

gecko 15y ago

I don't think that's quite true. If you read stories in the New Yorker, or the Atlantic, or similar publications, then you'd find equally "naval-gazing" writing from "real" reporters. When I write a post, or when a journalist writes a story, or when you write a comment, you want to have an angle: something that sets your writing apart from the other thirty people who are writing about the same thing. Many publications today will cover detailed information about Mountain Lion. Gruber knows that. Further, there's not actually much new in Mountain Lion: Gruber successfully summarizes the new release in a handful of words in a middle paragraph. While I suppose he could go into more detail on interface minutia between Contacts and Address Book, or pontificate on why Notification Center on OS X looks more like Growl and less like the iOS pull-down, even doing that would provide him relatively little material. Instead, Gruber focused on the culture of the event. From a company so well known for massive product releases and on-stage demos, the idea of doing not just one, but a large number of in-person demos across the country represents a substantial shift. It could symbolize any number of things, from a lack of confidence to a desire to repair image damage from Foxconn, which is why Gruber finds a need to emphasize how polished the presentation was and how the event was set-up in detail. I can understand why this might feel like naval gazing, but to me, it's anything but. Gruber is in a unique position to comment on the cultural shifts of Apple, precisely because he's so involved with that selfsame culture. If he's going to comment on Mountain Lion's release this morning, that's going to be his angle. It's completely fine if you don't find it interesting, but questioning his competency, or calling this approach conceited, is wrong.

krschultz 15y ago
In fairness, the New Yorker might spend the same length of page navel gazing, but the story as a whole is 10x longer.

bjcy 15y ago

I don't think that Gruber would argue that this piece falls into what we would call stereotypical journalism. It's not a piece that purports to be a View From Nowhere. I think that this piece is akin to pieces you might read in the New Yorker or the Atlantic, in that you see a writer's analysis of a topic or event through their experience, both past and present. It's doubtful that Gruber is rubbing this in all of our faces. More likely, he's noting it's novelty as a change (or a confirmation, really) of Apple's motivations. Gruber is a competent writer. His pieces exhibit voice and clarity, though you might disagree with him (I often do), but a contrary opinion is no less competent for its, well, contrariness. That's the spirit of HN. If you disagree with someone but they challenge you and add value to the discussion, you upvote and challenge back, sharpening both of your stances.

astrodust 15y ago
I liked the perspective on this one. The OS itself? Yadda yadda. That will be covered in excruciating detail through the next news cycle. The event, though, will probably be glossed over. Describing things like this is a way of seeing into the machine and finding out how it works. This kind of event marks an interesting departure from previous WWDC-type promotions. It's an important thing in and of itself.
- BrandonM 15y ago
  I totally agree. I'm not a Gruber fan and I've never owned a Mac, but I was still interested in his analysis of why they held the meetings in the fashion they did. Letting us in on some of Apple's inner workings and their collective "thought process" is a valuable service to readers.
roc 15y ago
That was my feeling. If you know Apple, you know there's no question you can ask that they'll answer with any more information than they wanted to reveal and put into that presentation. So digging is pointless. And writing an article full of unanswered questions wouldn't serve any purpose beyond trying to impress us all with the writer's cleverness. You can't differentiate yourself that way. Further, a dozen other sites were getting this presentation, with the same embargo date and they were going to write the articles that their audiences expected. So absent a unique take that might interest Gruber's particular audience, there'd have been no point to his writing anything. If not this sort of approach, he might as well have just linked to Engadget and called it a day.

tonetheman 15y ago

Yes exactly. It is this type of "I am cool and you are not" that runs rampant in this and everything else he writes. I use apple products and find it mildly interesting they are releasing a new OS version. I could care less that this asshat got free coffee.

suchire 15y ago

Or, you know, the difference between headline-writing, bullet-point, "breaking news" "journalists" and the journalists that write long-form investigative reports, in-depth stories, and other less "news-y" pieces that flesh out things like atmosphere and details.

roc 15y ago

I think you were looking for something that Gruber never set out to write. That is, you wanted to read something like the article that Engadget wrote (from what I would guess was the same presentation and early access). But Gruber has never really been that guy. And I don't think that's ever been a secret. You could drop this criticism on any of his longer-form pieces and making it just makes me wonder why you bother reading him.

dchest 15y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrative_journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Journalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_nonfiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_nonfiction There are many genres of journalism. It's true that Gruber is not Reuters. It doesn't mean that he's not a journalist (even if he doesn't say so himself).

beatpanda 15y ago
I don't think any of these things are apt comparisons to what Gruber does. In narrative journalism, the author includes personal details that add something to the story or reveal a greater truth about whatever they're writing. Gruber, on the other hand, just wants you to know how cool he is.
- dchest 15y ago
  gecko's reply above explains what you seem to miss from this Gruber's writing.

rickmb 15y ago

Methinks that for a critique of someone's writing this is the wrong forum. Which wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't for the fact that shooting the messenger and/or his writing style seems to be a treatment exclusively reserved for Gruber. These kneejerk reactions to one particular blogger are pathetic and belong on Reddit, not HN.

Volpe 15y ago
Really... didn't pg himself do exactly that RE: TechCrunch and Curebit ripping off 37signals (among others) designs. Seems like just a reality of the tech world, everyone just discredits everyone else in the hope of increasing the value of their own portfolio/brand/whatever.

lwat 15y ago

Oh look, it's the compulsory Gruber bashing comment.

napierzaza 15y ago

At least he has a better story than his fantastic elevator ride with an Apple Exec.