5 ms·

I dunno. I’ve been to all of those European cities and they were nice to visit for a week as a tourist but the density along with everything that goes with it:

I dunno. I’ve been to all of those European cities and they were nice to visit for a week as a tourist but the density along with everything that goes with it: noise, smells, crowds etc were always a reminder that I only want to be there on a brief visit. I’m my suburban city, I simply hop in my vehicle and can be anywhere I want in 3-15 minutes.

bertil 3y ago
> noise, smells, crowds Those are caused mainly by cars. Take away the cars and there’s a lot more space and fresh air for everyone.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I visit Amsterdam periodically for business. In the city center, where there are very few cars, there is far more noise, smells, and crowds than I would care to live with everyday. Density of people brings those three annoyances, cars or no cars.
  - cpursley 3y ago
    That’s Amsterdam. Go visit some less touristy cities in The Netherlands.
    - eythian 3y ago
      Not even that. I live a little outside the centre of Amsterdam (I could walk to De Wallen in probably 30 minutes comfortably.) Most residents don't go into the centre because it's a mass of tourists who haven't learnt how to walk outside of bike lanes. In my neighbourhood, there still aren't that many cars, the footpaths and bike paths are wider, and it's generally calm and quiet, and I sit on a moderately busy road, a small street off it will be much quieter still. There're a few cafes that I go to that are a bit more central, but it's still mostly outside the really busy area. I think most people's - even a lot of Dutch people's - experience is getting off at Centraal and walking to some bar in the centre, or going through the shopping areas, and then extrapolating that to everywhere else in the city so all they imagine is that busyness.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I have. Most of them seem to be car-centric, to the point where many of my work colleagues living there don’t even have an OV card (and were shocked when I said I had one as a tourist).
  - webdood90 3y ago
    Maybe you should move to the moon then, because you either have density that allows you to enjoy nice services and comforts or you live in the boonies where you need a car and perpetuate the inefficient consumption of resources.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
digging 3y ago
A well designed city makes most errands faster on foot than in a car. Even when cars are prioritized, traffic makes even the smallest errands a problem eventually; roads simply don't scale. And cars are by far the loudest thing about cities at almost all times. They make the very air hostile with pollution and heat. And, worst of all: > I simply hop in my vehicle and can be anywhere I want in 3-15 minutes You do this at the direct expense of everyone else in your city. You make the streets unwalkable and the city unlivable. You are insulated from the sounds and dangers that you are creating around you. (I'm just using you as an example, I don't actually blame you for taking the only option you've been given.)
- HPsquared 3y ago
  Car-centric design makes things unwalkable; other models make things undriveable. It's a competition.
  - digging 3y ago
    Undriveable isn't bad though. We don't really get any value from driving for everyday trips over walking/biking/transit. And any decent walkable designs don't prohibit necessary driving such as delivery and emergency services, so they're not truly undriveable. It is a competition, but dying from cancer is also a form of competition. We don't always have to give both sides equal standing.
    - google234123 3y ago
      Some places are really hot/humid you know, it's nice not to have to bike and need a shower for a small errand
      - alistairSH 3y ago
        So prioritize e-bikes or scooters.
      - digging 3y ago
        I live in one. I still walk when I'm able.
davidw 3y ago
I lived in Italy for a number of years, and it's not noisier or smellier than where I now live in Oregon. Truth be told, it was quieter because here in Bend, Oregon, there's a "parkway" that runs right through town and even though we're not at all right next to it, it's quite loud with car noises when the wind blows right (wrong). Italy isn't perfect and I could talk about that country's problems a lot, but in terms of transportation, it was more a "right tool for the job" place than here, where we'd walk to many things, ride bikes to others, take the train occasionally, city busses some, and yes, use the car too for some stuff.
- RigelKentaurus 3y ago
  As someone who just got back from a two-week vacation in Italy, I couldn't agree more. We did sightseeing, groceries, ate out, and travelled extensively without using a car. Public transport and walking made everything easy. It's a failure of imagination in the U.S.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Take a two-week vacation to New York, I'm sure you can do it without a car. Or San Diego, or Hawaii. A vacation is not the same as living somewhere.
    - davidw 3y ago
      Right. I actually lived in Italy for a number of years without a car, and then got one. I used it sometimes, but it's such a difference from "yeah, occasionally I want to go out somewhere tough to get to without a car, for a hike" and "I literally can't do anything without an automobile", as is the case in most of the US.
acabal 3y ago
For those who live in such cities (and not just visit), everything they want to do is a 3-15 minute walk, not a drive. You can get groceries, stop at a cafe, go to a doctor's appointment, and pick up your kids from school (or better yet, they can walk themselves, because their school is nearby and getting killed by speeding SUVs is not a concern) - all within a 15 minute radius. If the walk is truly too far, a metro stop is often nearby. Living in such places is eye-opening!
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  Sorry, but I really have to ask: Why did you chose 15 minutes specifically as your time frame?
  - sethrin 3y ago
    Perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    Because the comment they are replying to says everything is within a 3-15 minute drive. (I'll extend it to a ¼—15 minute walk. I happen to live above a kiosk, it is nearer than the car in the basement.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- bombcar 3y ago
  I have lived in the USA all my life and I've never been more than 15-20 minute walk from a grocery store of some kind. And that's in a quite a few areas from pretty dense single-family urban to apartments to what some might call rural. You can do it but people don't. Hell, walmart is only 30 minute walk away, but I drive most the time. Probably should get my bike fixed and easily accessible ...
  - the_only_law 3y ago
ivirshup 3y ago
Currently living in Munich, it is the quietest place I ever lived. Also super clean, like more than Singapore.
epolanski 3y ago
Those are huge cities, smaller centers are heaven without being non sense absurdities of two story one family houses. Go to Lausanne, Geneva, Munich, Nice, etc.
- landemva 3y ago
  I have no idea what it cost in Munich, but the city center undergrounded the commuter trains and the river. The river appears in Englisch Garden from under a road and is a popular surf spot on a standing wave.

bertil 3y ago

> noise, smells, crowds Those are caused mainly by cars. Take away the cars and there’s a lot more space and fresh air for everyone.

sokoloff 3y ago
I visit Amsterdam periodically for business. In the city center, where there are very few cars, there is far more noise, smells, and crowds than I would care to live with everyday. Density of people brings those three annoyances, cars or no cars.
- cpursley 3y ago
  That’s Amsterdam. Go visit some less touristy cities in The Netherlands.
  - eythian 3y ago
    Not even that. I live a little outside the centre of Amsterdam (I could walk to De Wallen in probably 30 minutes comfortably.) Most residents don't go into the centre because it's a mass of tourists who haven't learnt how to walk outside of bike lanes. In my neighbourhood, there still aren't that many cars, the footpaths and bike paths are wider, and it's generally calm and quiet, and I sit on a moderately busy road, a small street off it will be much quieter still. There're a few cafes that I go to that are a bit more central, but it's still mostly outside the really busy area. I think most people's - even a lot of Dutch people's - experience is getting off at Centraal and walking to some bar in the centre, or going through the shopping areas, and then extrapolating that to everywhere else in the city so all they imagine is that busyness.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I have. Most of them seem to be car-centric, to the point where many of my work colleagues living there don’t even have an OV card (and were shocked when I said I had one as a tourist).
- webdood90 3y ago
  Maybe you should move to the moon then, because you either have density that allows you to enjoy nice services and comforts or you live in the boonies where you need a car and perpetuate the inefficient consumption of resources.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

digging 3y ago

A well designed city makes most errands faster on foot than in a car. Even when cars are prioritized, traffic makes even the smallest errands a problem eventually; roads simply don't scale. And cars are by far the loudest thing about cities at almost all times. They make the very air hostile with pollution and heat. And, worst of all: > I simply hop in my vehicle and can be anywhere I want in 3-15 minutes You do this at the direct expense of everyone else in your city. You make the streets unwalkable and the city unlivable. You are insulated from the sounds and dangers that you are creating around you. (I'm just using you as an example, I don't actually blame you for taking the only option you've been given.)

HPsquared 3y ago
Car-centric design makes things unwalkable; other models make things undriveable. It's a competition.
- digging 3y ago
  Undriveable isn't bad though. We don't really get any value from driving for everyday trips over walking/biking/transit. And any decent walkable designs don't prohibit necessary driving such as delivery and emergency services, so they're not truly undriveable. It is a competition, but dying from cancer is also a form of competition. We don't always have to give both sides equal standing.
  - google234123 3y ago
    Some places are really hot/humid you know, it's nice not to have to bike and need a shower for a small errand
    - alistairSH 3y ago
      So prioritize e-bikes or scooters.
    - digging 3y ago
      I live in one. I still walk when I'm able.

davidw 3y ago

I lived in Italy for a number of years, and it's not noisier or smellier than where I now live in Oregon. Truth be told, it was quieter because here in Bend, Oregon, there's a "parkway" that runs right through town and even though we're not at all right next to it, it's quite loud with car noises when the wind blows right (wrong). Italy isn't perfect and I could talk about that country's problems a lot, but in terms of transportation, it was more a "right tool for the job" place than here, where we'd walk to many things, ride bikes to others, take the train occasionally, city busses some, and yes, use the car too for some stuff.

RigelKentaurus 3y ago
As someone who just got back from a two-week vacation in Italy, I couldn't agree more. We did sightseeing, groceries, ate out, and travelled extensively without using a car. Public transport and walking made everything easy. It's a failure of imagination in the U.S.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Take a two-week vacation to New York, I'm sure you can do it without a car. Or San Diego, or Hawaii. A vacation is not the same as living somewhere.
  - davidw 3y ago
    Right. I actually lived in Italy for a number of years without a car, and then got one. I used it sometimes, but it's such a difference from "yeah, occasionally I want to go out somewhere tough to get to without a car, for a hike" and "I literally can't do anything without an automobile", as is the case in most of the US.

acabal 3y ago

For those who live in such cities (and not just visit), everything they want to do is a 3-15 minute walk, not a drive. You can get groceries, stop at a cafe, go to a doctor's appointment, and pick up your kids from school (or better yet, they can walk themselves, because their school is nearby and getting killed by speeding SUVs is not a concern) - all within a 15 minute radius. If the walk is truly too far, a metro stop is often nearby. Living in such places is eye-opening!

carlosjobim 3y ago
Sorry, but I really have to ask: Why did you chose 15 minutes specifically as your time frame?
- sethrin 3y ago
  Perhaps: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-minute_city
- Symbiote 3y ago
  Because the comment they are replying to says everything is within a 3-15 minute drive. (I'll extend it to a ¼—15 minute walk. I happen to live above a kiosk, it is nearer than the car in the basement.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
bombcar 3y ago
I have lived in the USA all my life and I've never been more than 15-20 minute walk from a grocery store of some kind. And that's in a quite a few areas from pretty dense single-family urban to apartments to what some might call rural. You can do it but people don't. Hell, walmart is only 30 minute walk away, but I drive most the time. Probably should get my bike fixed and easily accessible ...
- the_only_law 3y ago

ivirshup 3y ago

Currently living in Munich, it is the quietest place I ever lived. Also super clean, like more than Singapore.

epolanski 3y ago

Those are huge cities, smaller centers are heaven without being non sense absurdities of two story one family houses. Go to Lausanne, Geneva, Munich, Nice, etc.

landemva 3y ago
I have no idea what it cost in Munich, but the city center undergrounded the commuter trains and the river. The river appears in Englisch Garden from under a road and is a popular surf spot on a standing wave.