5 ms·

We had this issue in the Midwest (central Illinois). Can’t remember exactly why, but radon would accumulate in the basements. Had to have sensors and ventilatio

We had this issue in the Midwest (central Illinois). Can’t remember exactly why, but radon would accumulate in the basements. Had to have sensors and ventilation for it.

bhhaskin 3y ago
Same issue in Northern Nevada. Radon gas seeps in.
anamexis 3y ago
Indeed - radon checks are a standard part of pre-purchase home inspections, because remediation can be quite expensive
- Kon-Peki 3y ago
  Most of the cost is the installation of equipment in the existing home. In areas of the country that have a lot of radon, it's not uncommon to install the equipment during construction of the house foundation, which then only adds a few hundred dollars to the total cost. > Radon-resistant new construction (RRNC) typically costs a builder between $250 and $750. RRNC could cost less than $250 if the builder already uses some of the same techniques for moisture control. https://www.epa.gov/radon/radon-resistant-new-construction-home-buyers https://www.epa.gov/radon/radon-resistant-new-construction-h...
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Not uncommon as in it's building code in those areas. Tricky bit I think is when you live in a state with small pockets of radon instead of broad regions. Then you're back into crapshoot territory.
- danbtl 3y ago
  We had such a remediation done recently, in Alberta close to the rocky mountains. Costs were around $2,000 CAD to install a sub-slab depressurization system (i.e. a fan that pulls air from below the house and vents it away from the house). Radon values dropped from around 500 Bq/m3 to less than 20 Bq/m3.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    Those systems must be new. The classic solution is to install drain pipes before pouring the slab, so one can imagine how difficult it would be using 1980's construction techniques to retroactively add piping below a finished house. We also had to dig trenches to lay natural gas lines, but we have a way to do those with horizontal boring techniques (of course then people who didn't know what they were doing put them straight through sewer lines, causing backups, visits from the Roto Rooter man, and subsequent explosions due to dumping natural gas straight into the sewer main). Is it safe to assume they're using something like that with perforated pipes to exhaust radon?
    - ilyt 3y ago
      >Those systems must be new. The classic solution is to install drain pipes before pouring the slab, so one can imagine how difficult it would be using 1980's construction techniques to retroactively add piping below a finished house. They didn't had diggers and drills in the 80's ?
      - iudqnolq 3y ago
        It's easy to make a hole. Making a hole underground without making a hole aboveground is harder.
        hinkley 3y ago
        For instance, the first subway systems in London were installed via cut and cover. Dig a trench, build a roof. Usually those trenches were in the street, or a former canal, not under a building. Using modern tunnel boring equipment, Seattle's attempt to move the downtown section of 99 into a tunnel ended up stalled for a year because the ground shifted and pinched the boring machine in place. Oopsie. And of course if you're worried about gasses, puncturing a solid piece of concrete is just going to make that problem worse.
    - myself248 3y ago
      I had a side-job installing active, subslab depressurization systems in the 90s, and they were quite well established at the time. The EPA has quite clear and cogent guidance on radon, paraphrased as follows: Before going with active depressurization, start by installing a sealed sump cover, caulking the basement wall-to-floor joint, and caulking all the cracks in the basement walls, in that order. If that doesn't get the number down where you want it, drill the subslab access hole and install the ventilation piping to the outdoors, but don't install the fan in the middle. Only of those fail to get adequate results, install the fan. It's really simple and quite cheap. I don't think we ever did a job that was over $1000. Costs of running the fans were pennies a month, and Fantech still sells the classic FR-100 fan all these years later, though there are even quieter options now.
theGnuMe 3y ago
Happens almost everywhere where basements exist.
- lazide 3y ago
  Higher amounts of granite in the soil make it worse. Depending on the area, it can be a severe health hazard to the point no one puts in basements - others, kinda meh. Here is a map! [https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/documents/radon-zones-map.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/documents/ra...]
- gniv 3y ago
  I would think you want basements (and ventilate them), since otherwise the radon comes directly into the living space.
dmicah 3y ago
It can be an issue everywhere, Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer, after smoking.
- schiffern 3y ago
  This claim (which ultimately came from the EPA) is suspect at best. It just comes from assuming a Linear No-Threshold model, which flatly contradicts the available body of medical evidence. https://youtu.be/TYZglUjLE0Y https://youtu.be/TYZglUjLE0Y
  - joshuahedlund 3y ago
    Thanks for posting this, I will check it out. As a Midwesterner with a basement I had once looked into those claims about radon as the second-highest cause of lung cancer with concern and found the evidence much weaker than I expected. Even by EPA estimates[0] almost 90% of the lung cancer deaths attributed to radon are smokers (i.e. who have already weakened lungs), and there didn't seem to be good evidence of damage from basement radon for non-smokers. [0]https://www.epa.gov/radon/health-risk-radon https://www.epa.gov/radon/health-risk-radon
    - schiffern 3y ago
      Let me preemptively disclaim that I do have nitpicks about the talk I linked, but IMO his main argument is sound. In particular I think his scientific explanations aren't always fully accurate, and he worries about measurement minutia very strenuously. Also at one point he says you could breathe 80% radon/20% oxygen, which while chemically this is true, radiologically it would be suicidal. Those nitpicks aside, his point about the EPA LNT model having no clothes is spot on. After "the scales fell from my eyes," now I can't not notice how all those same Party Line Claims get parroted in every piece of radon-related content. Another glimpse down the rabbit hole is this interview with the late Dr Bernie Cohen, who studied the link between residential radon and cancer: https://youtu.be/xhkBLhw-8pk https://youtu.be/xhkBLhw-8pk
      - 3y ago
inglor_cz 3y ago
Some places in Czechia have a huge problem with radon emanating from the ancient bedrock below. These places, even though rural and not polluted, tend to have more deaths from lung cancer than the rust belt in northern Moravia, where air quality in general is worse, but the radon problem is almost non-existent. Newly built houses are required to be radon-proofed, AFAIK.
- Radim 3y ago
  I remember that "radon killer" story being vastly overblown / debunked. Apparently anything up to 150Bq/m3 is fine or even beneficial for your health. [0] Has the debunking itself been debunked? It's hard to keep track. [0] https://www.osel.cz/3436-radon-neskodi-a-mozna-i-prospiva.html https://www.osel.cz/3436-radon-neskodi-a-mozna-i-prospiva.ht...
xenadu02 3y ago
Because the rock formations in some areas are more prone to production of Radon gas which slowly diffuses through the soil. Basements in those areas tend to have Radon infiltration. It is obviously very slow but the basement is a low point and often not well ventilated which can allow the Radon to accumulate. Poured slabs are less permeable, not a low point, and tend to have better ventilation either intentionally or unintentionally.
- logdap 3y ago
  Technically it's the daughters of radon, the decay products, which accumulate. Radon itself has a half life of less than four days, but it decays into all kinds of nasty stuff like Polonium and ultimately Lead.
- BetterGeiger 3y ago
  It is a myth that radon collects in "low points", concentrations are low and it diffuses as the molecules bounce around. However, as you said radon is entering into those areas primarily, which means it will naturally be higher in those areas. Secondly basements often have poor ventilation, which is not to say that the radon cannot otherwise escape, but ventilation can disperse it much more rapidly than diffusion.

We had this issue in the Midwest (central Illinois). Can’t remember exactly why, but radon would accumulate in the basements. Had to have sensors and ventilation for it.

bhhaskin 3y ago

Same issue in Northern Nevada. Radon gas seeps in.

anamexis 3y ago

Indeed - radon checks are a standard part of pre-purchase home inspections, because remediation can be quite expensive

Kon-Peki 3y ago
Most of the cost is the installation of equipment in the existing home. In areas of the country that have a lot of radon, it's not uncommon to install the equipment during construction of the house foundation, which then only adds a few hundred dollars to the total cost. > Radon-resistant new construction (RRNC) typically costs a builder between $250 and $750. RRNC could cost less than $250 if the builder already uses some of the same techniques for moisture control. https://www.epa.gov/radon/radon-resistant-new-construction-home-buyers https://www.epa.gov/radon/radon-resistant-new-construction-h...
- hinkley 3y ago
  Not uncommon as in it's building code in those areas. Tricky bit I think is when you live in a state with small pockets of radon instead of broad regions. Then you're back into crapshoot territory.
danbtl 3y ago
We had such a remediation done recently, in Alberta close to the rocky mountains. Costs were around $2,000 CAD to install a sub-slab depressurization system (i.e. a fan that pulls air from below the house and vents it away from the house). Radon values dropped from around 500 Bq/m3 to less than 20 Bq/m3.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Those systems must be new. The classic solution is to install drain pipes before pouring the slab, so one can imagine how difficult it would be using 1980's construction techniques to retroactively add piping below a finished house. We also had to dig trenches to lay natural gas lines, but we have a way to do those with horizontal boring techniques (of course then people who didn't know what they were doing put them straight through sewer lines, causing backups, visits from the Roto Rooter man, and subsequent explosions due to dumping natural gas straight into the sewer main). Is it safe to assume they're using something like that with perforated pipes to exhaust radon?
  - ilyt 3y ago
    >Those systems must be new. The classic solution is to install drain pipes before pouring the slab, so one can imagine how difficult it would be using 1980's construction techniques to retroactively add piping below a finished house. They didn't had diggers and drills in the 80's ?
    - iudqnolq 3y ago
      It's easy to make a hole. Making a hole underground without making a hole aboveground is harder.
      - hinkley 3y ago
        For instance, the first subway systems in London were installed via cut and cover. Dig a trench, build a roof. Usually those trenches were in the street, or a former canal, not under a building. Using modern tunnel boring equipment, Seattle's attempt to move the downtown section of 99 into a tunnel ended up stalled for a year because the ground shifted and pinched the boring machine in place. Oopsie. And of course if you're worried about gasses, puncturing a solid piece of concrete is just going to make that problem worse.
  - myself248 3y ago
    I had a side-job installing active, subslab depressurization systems in the 90s, and they were quite well established at the time. The EPA has quite clear and cogent guidance on radon, paraphrased as follows: Before going with active depressurization, start by installing a sealed sump cover, caulking the basement wall-to-floor joint, and caulking all the cracks in the basement walls, in that order. If that doesn't get the number down where you want it, drill the subslab access hole and install the ventilation piping to the outdoors, but don't install the fan in the middle. Only of those fail to get adequate results, install the fan. It's really simple and quite cheap. I don't think we ever did a job that was over $1000. Costs of running the fans were pennies a month, and Fantech still sells the classic FR-100 fan all these years later, though there are even quieter options now.

theGnuMe 3y ago

Happens almost everywhere where basements exist.

lazide 3y ago
Higher amounts of granite in the soil make it worse. Depending on the area, it can be a severe health hazard to the point no one puts in basements - others, kinda meh. Here is a map! [https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/documents/radon-zones-map.pdf https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-12/documents/ra...]
gniv 3y ago
I would think you want basements (and ventilate them), since otherwise the radon comes directly into the living space.

dmicah 3y ago

It can be an issue everywhere, Radon is the second leading cause of lung cancer, after smoking.

schiffern 3y ago
This claim (which ultimately came from the EPA) is suspect at best. It just comes from assuming a Linear No-Threshold model, which flatly contradicts the available body of medical evidence. https://youtu.be/TYZglUjLE0Y https://youtu.be/TYZglUjLE0Y
- joshuahedlund 3y ago
  Thanks for posting this, I will check it out. As a Midwesterner with a basement I had once looked into those claims about radon as the second-highest cause of lung cancer with concern and found the evidence much weaker than I expected. Even by EPA estimates[0] almost 90% of the lung cancer deaths attributed to radon are smokers (i.e. who have already weakened lungs), and there didn't seem to be good evidence of damage from basement radon for non-smokers. [0]https://www.epa.gov/radon/health-risk-radon https://www.epa.gov/radon/health-risk-radon
  - schiffern 3y ago
    Let me preemptively disclaim that I do have nitpicks about the talk I linked, but IMO his main argument is sound. In particular I think his scientific explanations aren't always fully accurate, and he worries about measurement minutia very strenuously. Also at one point he says you could breathe 80% radon/20% oxygen, which while chemically this is true, radiologically it would be suicidal. Those nitpicks aside, his point about the EPA LNT model having no clothes is spot on. After "the scales fell from my eyes," now I can't not notice how all those same Party Line Claims get parroted in every piece of radon-related content. Another glimpse down the rabbit hole is this interview with the late Dr Bernie Cohen, who studied the link between residential radon and cancer: https://youtu.be/xhkBLhw-8pk https://youtu.be/xhkBLhw-8pk
    - 3y ago

inglor_cz 3y ago

Some places in Czechia have a huge problem with radon emanating from the ancient bedrock below. These places, even though rural and not polluted, tend to have more deaths from lung cancer than the rust belt in northern Moravia, where air quality in general is worse, but the radon problem is almost non-existent. Newly built houses are required to be radon-proofed, AFAIK.

Radim 3y ago
I remember that "radon killer" story being vastly overblown / debunked. Apparently anything up to 150Bq/m3 is fine or even beneficial for your health. [0] Has the debunking itself been debunked? It's hard to keep track. [0] https://www.osel.cz/3436-radon-neskodi-a-mozna-i-prospiva.html https://www.osel.cz/3436-radon-neskodi-a-mozna-i-prospiva.ht...

xenadu02 3y ago

Because the rock formations in some areas are more prone to production of Radon gas which slowly diffuses through the soil. Basements in those areas tend to have Radon infiltration. It is obviously very slow but the basement is a low point and often not well ventilated which can allow the Radon to accumulate. Poured slabs are less permeable, not a low point, and tend to have better ventilation either intentionally or unintentionally.

logdap 3y ago
Technically it's the daughters of radon, the decay products, which accumulate. Radon itself has a half life of less than four days, but it decays into all kinds of nasty stuff like Polonium and ultimately Lead.
BetterGeiger 3y ago
It is a myth that radon collects in "low points", concentrations are low and it diffuses as the molecules bounce around. However, as you said radon is entering into those areas primarily, which means it will naturally be higher in those areas. Secondly basements often have poor ventilation, which is not to say that the radon cannot otherwise escape, but ventilation can disperse it much more rapidly than diffusion.