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This is very astute. I'd like to add that the pipeline for child/adolescent hackers that existed in the pre-00s is basically non-existent. The only major path

by Mezzie 3y ago

This is very astute. I'd like to add that the pipeline for child/adolescent hackers that existed in the pre-00s is basically non-existent. The only major path that still exists that I can think of is game modding. I'm a third-generation techie on both sides of my family (my paternal grandpa (b. ~1915) got started working with TVs and their mechanical parts and my maternal grandmother (b. mid 1920s) learned C in the 70s) and there are several parts of my upbringing that I don't think could be replicated. For instance, I got started with web work in the 90s, which meant that a.) nobody knew what they were doing and the lack of formal structure combined with the cultural appreciation for competence meant that children could do 'real' work and I loved helping with 'real' work and b.) there was no age limit to participation and no legal liability since most of it wasn't commercial. There were also child-specific parts of the Web that were built by actual children instead of corporations meant to siphon money from parents. A large draw was being able to act without needing adult intermediaries. I could make a website about Sailor Moon or toys or start a chat/IRC room and control the discussions I had and kick adults or anybody who was inappropriate. (10 year olds are great dictators). There are almost no pathways into tech now that revolve around tech as play and I think that's where a lot of hackers came from.

tracker1 3y ago
Pre 00's hackers, or pre 80's for that matter, mostly tinkered with physical things... pulling apart a radio, remote controlled toy or reading popular mechanics. Now, you can do so much in pure software, and it's far easier and less expensive that it's the direction most will go. That doesn't mean there weren't hackers or nearly as proportionate an amount of them before the 00's. For that matter, my great grandfather was the type that actually built cabinets, or did plumbing, electrical, etc in his home. The most I've done is run an ethernet cable or change a light fixture or switch. That's not a critique of younger generations, just pointing out that a desire to learn, understand and do things has always existed. It just presented a bit differently.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  Yeah, a part of it is that there's not really a mechanic class in the way that there used to be. I mentioned that's how my grandpa got his start: He was obsessed with TVs and repaired them/made his own FrankenTVs as a side from his automotive job, which in turn meant that when the computer and arcade revolution hit my dad had the tools and expertise to get really into things like pinball machines, Pong, and Atari leading him to programming which in turn meant I (born in 1988) was raised in a household where pulling apart machines and doing what you want with them (rather than what was taught or what they were 'made' for) was normal. The decline in basic mechanical tinkering in the population definitely is a factor if only because the mindset transfers to hacking: "This is a human made tool and I am a human with the right/ability to screw with it/alter it to do what I want". Very few kids now grow up being encouraged to play with and take things apart. Both because the adults don't have the knowledge to put it back together or the tools for the kids to use and because our culture is way more risk averse than it used to be.
  - zubairshaik 3y ago
    A lot of products aren't as hackable as they used to be. The obvious comparisons are comparing early laptops to the laptops of today and likewise with old and new smartphones. There are far fewer ports, more soldered on components, and they are harder to even take apart. And there's plenty more electronics where the cost/benefit to figuring out how to repair a product versus just buying a replacement doesn't make sense anymore, but also as you mentioned the mindset isn't as prevalent. I wish I personally had more opportunity to tinker as a child but I'm glad I have a chance to catch up now, though I'm not really sure where to start. (And I don't have as much time to dedicate since I need to find a full-time job)
esafak 3y ago
I don't think so. You can easily play around in the browser, using Javascript, or on https://processing.org/ https://processing.org/, https://playground.tensorflow.org/ https://playground.tensorflow.org/, https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/, etc. If anything the problem is that today's kids have too many options. And sure, some are commercial.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  There's a huge difference between something being gamified and something being play, particularly unstructured play. Scratch is great, but it's structured and something presented by adults to children for learning. That has a whole bunch of social baggage attached as well as a 'win' condition set by adults. Also I'd say that the transition to hackerdom probably could truly take place at late elementary/middle school age and at that age anything 'kiddie' or designed for kids is lame, making it less likely that children will use it for building their own communities. This is pretty common with most of the options. It's why I wouldn't consider things like Roblox to lead to hacking because it's still a supervised playground with content 'rules'. TensorFlow probably will lead/is leading to some hackers.
  - zubairshaik 3y ago
    While I see your point, I think you're not giving Scratch enough credit. Admittedly, I don't know the culture around it today but back when I was a child the Scratch community was made up of kids who were there by choice, not because adults presented it to them. I certainly found it on my own, and had a swell time tinkering with it. > That has a whole bunch of social baggage attached as well as a 'win' condition set by adults. I'm not sure what you mean by this? I don't remember anything about winning besides the whole social media aspect of trying to get popular among all the cool projects that other people had by getting the largest number of likes and remixes.
JohnFen 3y ago
> There are almost no pathways into tech now that revolve around tech as play and I think that's where a lot of hackers came from. I don't think I agree. Many of the old pathways don'ts exist anymore, but they've been replaced with new ones. Look at the maker community ("makers" are mostly just hackers by a different name), or look at the resurgence of hobbyist electronics. I think electronics is a great example, actually, because I often hear old electronics nerds lament that hobbyist electronics is essentially impossible because most things a surface-mount these days. But what they don't realize is that designing and assembling circuits with surface-mount components is well within the realm of the hobbyist and is very common. This is proven by the wealth of wonderful projects they are engaging in. The difference with electronics is that the soldering techniques are different. They're not really any more difficult, but require a different set of skills that the graybeards often haven't learned.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  That's a good point. Perhaps a refining of the question as to why there are fewer hackers in software specifically since you're right that the conditions exist for hacker development in electronics (and I'm super hype for a lot of that suff - I need to get off my butt and earn some $$).
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Most of the software hackers I know (disclaimer: I'm a graybeard) got their start by making games. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that's still the case -- but now, the games are made using game engines like Unity rather than coding from scratch. But I don't know. As an old fart, I don't have a great deal of contact with the kids who are programming. I simply assume that they still exist. And now that I say that out loud -- that's a difference. When I was a kid, the older generations of hackers went out of their way to encourage and support budding young hackers. That's how I got my start. Maybe there's not enough of that these days? Since I don't know any children programmers, I clearly haven't gotten off my own butt to pass along the gifts the generation before me passed on to me. I need to change that.
    - 3y ago

by Mezzie 3y ago

tracker1 3y ago

Pre 00's hackers, or pre 80's for that matter, mostly tinkered with physical things... pulling apart a radio, remote controlled toy or reading popular mechanics. Now, you can do so much in pure software, and it's far easier and less expensive that it's the direction most will go. That doesn't mean there weren't hackers or nearly as proportionate an amount of them before the 00's. For that matter, my great grandfather was the type that actually built cabinets, or did plumbing, electrical, etc in his home. The most I've done is run an ethernet cable or change a light fixture or switch. That's not a critique of younger generations, just pointing out that a desire to learn, understand and do things has always existed. It just presented a bit differently.

Mezzie 3y ago
Yeah, a part of it is that there's not really a mechanic class in the way that there used to be. I mentioned that's how my grandpa got his start: He was obsessed with TVs and repaired them/made his own FrankenTVs as a side from his automotive job, which in turn meant that when the computer and arcade revolution hit my dad had the tools and expertise to get really into things like pinball machines, Pong, and Atari leading him to programming which in turn meant I (born in 1988) was raised in a household where pulling apart machines and doing what you want with them (rather than what was taught or what they were 'made' for) was normal. The decline in basic mechanical tinkering in the population definitely is a factor if only because the mindset transfers to hacking: "This is a human made tool and I am a human with the right/ability to screw with it/alter it to do what I want". Very few kids now grow up being encouraged to play with and take things apart. Both because the adults don't have the knowledge to put it back together or the tools for the kids to use and because our culture is way more risk averse than it used to be.
- zubairshaik 3y ago
  A lot of products aren't as hackable as they used to be. The obvious comparisons are comparing early laptops to the laptops of today and likewise with old and new smartphones. There are far fewer ports, more soldered on components, and they are harder to even take apart. And there's plenty more electronics where the cost/benefit to figuring out how to repair a product versus just buying a replacement doesn't make sense anymore, but also as you mentioned the mindset isn't as prevalent. I wish I personally had more opportunity to tinker as a child but I'm glad I have a chance to catch up now, though I'm not really sure where to start. (And I don't have as much time to dedicate since I need to find a full-time job)

esafak 3y ago

I don't think so. You can easily play around in the browser, using Javascript, or on https://processing.org/ https://processing.org/, https://playground.tensorflow.org/ https://playground.tensorflow.org/, https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/, etc. If anything the problem is that today's kids have too many options. And sure, some are commercial.

Mezzie 3y ago
There's a huge difference between something being gamified and something being play, particularly unstructured play. Scratch is great, but it's structured and something presented by adults to children for learning. That has a whole bunch of social baggage attached as well as a 'win' condition set by adults. Also I'd say that the transition to hackerdom probably could truly take place at late elementary/middle school age and at that age anything 'kiddie' or designed for kids is lame, making it less likely that children will use it for building their own communities. This is pretty common with most of the options. It's why I wouldn't consider things like Roblox to lead to hacking because it's still a supervised playground with content 'rules'. TensorFlow probably will lead/is leading to some hackers.
- zubairshaik 3y ago
  While I see your point, I think you're not giving Scratch enough credit. Admittedly, I don't know the culture around it today but back when I was a child the Scratch community was made up of kids who were there by choice, not because adults presented it to them. I certainly found it on my own, and had a swell time tinkering with it. > That has a whole bunch of social baggage attached as well as a 'win' condition set by adults. I'm not sure what you mean by this? I don't remember anything about winning besides the whole social media aspect of trying to get popular among all the cool projects that other people had by getting the largest number of likes and remixes.

JohnFen 3y ago

> There are almost no pathways into tech now that revolve around tech as play and I think that's where a lot of hackers came from. I don't think I agree. Many of the old pathways don'ts exist anymore, but they've been replaced with new ones. Look at the maker community ("makers" are mostly just hackers by a different name), or look at the resurgence of hobbyist electronics. I think electronics is a great example, actually, because I often hear old electronics nerds lament that hobbyist electronics is essentially impossible because most things a surface-mount these days. But what they don't realize is that designing and assembling circuits with surface-mount components is well within the realm of the hobbyist and is very common. This is proven by the wealth of wonderful projects they are engaging in. The difference with electronics is that the soldering techniques are different. They're not really any more difficult, but require a different set of skills that the graybeards often haven't learned.

Mezzie 3y ago
That's a good point. Perhaps a refining of the question as to why there are fewer hackers in software specifically since you're right that the conditions exist for hacker development in electronics (and I'm super hype for a lot of that suff - I need to get off my butt and earn some $$).
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Most of the software hackers I know (disclaimer: I'm a graybeard) got their start by making games. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that's still the case -- but now, the games are made using game engines like Unity rather than coding from scratch. But I don't know. As an old fart, I don't have a great deal of contact with the kids who are programming. I simply assume that they still exist. And now that I say that out loud -- that's a difference. When I was a kid, the older generations of hackers went out of their way to encourage and support budding young hackers. That's how I got my start. Maybe there's not enough of that these days? Since I don't know any children programmers, I clearly haven't gotten off my own butt to pass along the gifts the generation before me passed on to me. I need to change that.
  - 3y ago