4 ms·

> I think the reason, plain and simple, is that most developers aren't really in it for the passion anymore, but rather the money. This site is a prime example

by sph 3y ago

> I think the reason, plain and simple, is that most developers aren't really in it for the passion anymore, but rather the money. This site is a prime example. There can't be a post about a non-mainstream programming language without someone's comment saying "I don't get the point of this, it is really hard to hire for/it would be really hard to pick up for junior developers." It seems every small project, library, language is evaluated in the context of the average FAANG developer, or whether it would fit in a startup environment. Hacking, as in enjoying the art of programming computers, is going the way of the dodo, especially on this site. The few remaining hackers are massively outranked by the "I only know Javascript" average dev, the Silicon Valley-adjacent MBAs and the huge number of those that somehow are here just to post and comment about non-programming topics. On the rare occasion there's a post on Lisp or software-defined radios, for example, you often see the same faces. It seems that on here, the nucleus of hackers has remained more or less constant since 2010, while all other demographics flooded in. As an average hacker, I must say that I don't give a rat's arse anymore about most mainstream programming topic you can find on this site's front page.

rlpb 3y ago
> It seems that on here, the nucleus of hackers has remained more or less constant since 2010, while all other demographics flooded in. I think this also describes those working on software in general. Everyone uses the same interesting-to-hackers low level parts of the stack. But the nature of software is that _use_ scales infinitely, so roughly the same small quantity of developers are needed the same as was needed in the 90s. But technology use has exploded, so there's huge demand for developers working higher up in the stack, because the need for domain specific apps has exploded and that part doesn't scale. So the 90s hackers continue but are now dwarfed by app developers and web developers are many orders of magnitude more numerous. Unfortunately because software is a commodity the use of the low level parts of the stack doesn't translate to money for the hackers working on them. Because just as it's a niche interest for developers in that area, so it's a niche business case to make money out of working in that area.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Being a hacker has nothing to do with how far up the stack you operate. It even has nothing to do with software or computers specifically. Traditionally, being a hacker is being a person who is very interested in learning how things work, and how to use those things in new ways. Historically, proper hackers have focused on things ranging from model railroads to pay phones to bureaucratic systems, to computers and more. The most common early sign that a child is a hacker is when the child takes apart every machine they can lay their hands on.
  - rlpb 3y ago
    > Traditionally, being a hacker is being a person who is very interested in learning how things work... I am aware, and I agree. > Being a hacker has nothing to do with how far up the stack you operate. I disagree. The workings further down the stack are interesting only to hackers, and those paid to work in that area. I think that's quite different from the reasons for interest further up the stack.
    - jasonm23 3y ago
      I think you may have missed the point, and I apologise, if I didn't infer your thought as it was intended. At any level of the stack, the hacker mindset of "learning how things work...(and utilizing that knowledge)" is generally applicable. It's arguable that while, say, Steve Jobs wasn't a technically adept hacker, he was a business, product and people/behavior hacker.
Mezzie 3y ago
> somehow are here just to post and comment about non-programming topics. I comment way more on non-programming topics because that's where I think I can contribute - most people on here are better programmers than I am but I have life experiences that are fairly unusual for this particular bubble. I do read the technical posts but I don't have much to say. As for the 'somehow', I was raised by hackers and I used to be one - I'm too much of a generalist to fully commit to it but I'm 'culturally' a hacker/hacker adjacent. I imagine our ranks are growing for various reasons, which might explain some of the shift.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I'm too much of a generalist But one of the primary traits of hackers is that they tend to be generalists.
  - Mezzie 3y ago
    I care about other things and people as much as tech. I can't just tinker with computers/machines and to stay up to date you have to invest some time in both the work and the communities. I'm very, very much a generalist. My other hobbies that straddle the line between hobby and professional interest (in that I do them for play but have gotten money for them) include fiction writing, marketing psychology, humanities and qualitative research, and bra fitting. Currently I'm off on a spree about the physiological nature of emotions and I'm getting really into experiences that are primarily physical and learning about biology in my spare time, which means I don't spend it coding or tinkering. I can still code/tinker/approach tech problems with a hacker mindset, but I don't like to pretend I'm as good as people who really love it. I'm a dilettante to my core.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      See my other comment about what being a "hacker" traditionally means. It's not specifically tech-related. Your explorations of the physiological nature of emotions is well within the scope of hacking. I honestly think that one of the things that has diminished the hacker community to a degree is that it has become synonymous in most people's minds with computers. But really, computer hackers are just one subset of the larger hacker community. There are legit hackers who have no interaction with computers beyond what most people do.

by sph 3y ago

rlpb 3y ago

> It seems that on here, the nucleus of hackers has remained more or less constant since 2010, while all other demographics flooded in. I think this also describes those working on software in general. Everyone uses the same interesting-to-hackers low level parts of the stack. But the nature of software is that _use_ scales infinitely, so roughly the same small quantity of developers are needed the same as was needed in the 90s. But technology use has exploded, so there's huge demand for developers working higher up in the stack, because the need for domain specific apps has exploded and that part doesn't scale. So the 90s hackers continue but are now dwarfed by app developers and web developers are many orders of magnitude more numerous. Unfortunately because software is a commodity the use of the low level parts of the stack doesn't translate to money for the hackers working on them. Because just as it's a niche interest for developers in that area, so it's a niche business case to make money out of working in that area.

JohnFen 3y ago
Being a hacker has nothing to do with how far up the stack you operate. It even has nothing to do with software or computers specifically. Traditionally, being a hacker is being a person who is very interested in learning how things work, and how to use those things in new ways. Historically, proper hackers have focused on things ranging from model railroads to pay phones to bureaucratic systems, to computers and more. The most common early sign that a child is a hacker is when the child takes apart every machine they can lay their hands on.
- rlpb 3y ago
  > Traditionally, being a hacker is being a person who is very interested in learning how things work... I am aware, and I agree. > Being a hacker has nothing to do with how far up the stack you operate. I disagree. The workings further down the stack are interesting only to hackers, and those paid to work in that area. I think that's quite different from the reasons for interest further up the stack.
  - jasonm23 3y ago
    I think you may have missed the point, and I apologise, if I didn't infer your thought as it was intended. At any level of the stack, the hacker mindset of "learning how things work...(and utilizing that knowledge)" is generally applicable. It's arguable that while, say, Steve Jobs wasn't a technically adept hacker, he was a business, product and people/behavior hacker.

Mezzie 3y ago

> somehow are here just to post and comment about non-programming topics. I comment way more on non-programming topics because that's where I think I can contribute - most people on here are better programmers than I am but I have life experiences that are fairly unusual for this particular bubble. I do read the technical posts but I don't have much to say. As for the 'somehow', I was raised by hackers and I used to be one - I'm too much of a generalist to fully commit to it but I'm 'culturally' a hacker/hacker adjacent. I imagine our ranks are growing for various reasons, which might explain some of the shift.

JohnFen 3y ago
> I'm too much of a generalist But one of the primary traits of hackers is that they tend to be generalists.
- Mezzie 3y ago
  I care about other things and people as much as tech. I can't just tinker with computers/machines and to stay up to date you have to invest some time in both the work and the communities. I'm very, very much a generalist. My other hobbies that straddle the line between hobby and professional interest (in that I do them for play but have gotten money for them) include fiction writing, marketing psychology, humanities and qualitative research, and bra fitting. Currently I'm off on a spree about the physiological nature of emotions and I'm getting really into experiences that are primarily physical and learning about biology in my spare time, which means I don't spend it coding or tinkering. I can still code/tinker/approach tech problems with a hacker mindset, but I don't like to pretend I'm as good as people who really love it. I'm a dilettante to my core.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    See my other comment about what being a "hacker" traditionally means. It's not specifically tech-related. Your explorations of the physiological nature of emotions is well within the scope of hacking. I honestly think that one of the things that has diminished the hacker community to a degree is that it has become synonymous in most people's minds with computers. But really, computer hackers are just one subset of the larger hacker community. There are legit hackers who have no interaction with computers beyond what most people do.