4 ms·

The Great x86 CPU Stagnation? ARM seems to have made some great leaps forward in recent years.

rbanffy 3y ago
I don't have a feeling ARM offerings are significantly cheaper than x86. There really isn't much magic, a transistor costs the same to manufacture under a given process, regardless of the ISA. In that, RISC-V might get some edge, because ARM licensing is expensive, but I don't think licensing is a significant cost for the x86 crowd. OTOH, the server ARM people are really pushing it: https://www.semianalysis.com/p/sound-the-siyrn-ampereone-192-core https://www.semianalysis.com/p/sound-the-siyrn-ampereone-192... But Altra's ain't cheap.
freedomben 3y ago
not really, there have been some systems built on top of ARM chips that have been impressive, but the chip hardware tech hasn't changed much differently than their x86 counterparts
f6v 3y ago
I’m ignorant about this. Can a Qualcomm or Samsung chip match Intel’s raw power?
- mhh__ 3y ago
  The leading Arm chip (by apple) is arguably the best in class.
  - f6v 3y ago
    I'm well aware of Apple’s success since I’m surrounded by their devices at home. It seems to me it can’t be attributed only to ARM. What I wonder is where’re someone can match Intel on Intel’s playing field, like supplying ARM chips to laptop manufacturers that are better than Intel.
    - JackSlateur 3y ago
      Is there anything ISA-related in this ? Hardly Using the last ASML's technology is a big part of the situation Using on-chip memory is another
  - EscapeFromNY 3y ago
    Apple's chips are very power efficent, yes, but the article and parent are talking/asking about raw power. Despite all the Intel hate the past 5 years, I don't think there's been even a moment where another company's leading chip has outperformed Intel's in benchmarks. See for example https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4922vs5022vs5008vs5189/Apple-M2-8-Core-3500-MHz-vs-Intel-i9-13900K-vs-Intel-i5-13600K-vs-Apple-M2-Pro-12-Core-3480-MHz https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4922vs5022vs5008vs5189/...
    - Reason077 3y ago
      The M2 Pro isn't doing too bad when you consider you're comparing a laptop chip with 14+ hour battery life against Intel's latest and greatest, high-TDP desktop CPU with twice as many cores. On a performance-per-core basis it's not even far behind.
      - e44858 3y ago
        If the TDP is an accurate measure, then the M1 appears to be about as efficient as 12th gen Intel: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html#all-cpu https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html#all-cpu
        Reason077 3y ago
        I wonder if there's some shenanigans going on there. Max TDP in an M1 is surely far lower than the max TDP of an i7-1255U, which it outperforms. Most M1 systems don't even have fans but can perform at max performance for extended times. U-series i7s can also be run fan-less, but performance will be compromised?
    - rocket_surgeron 3y ago
      >125W And that is a lie, to achieve those scores it turbos and consumes 300W+ at turbo. Today, right now, is a moment where AMD's enterprise product are outperforming Intel's in benchmarks. Except for a very small set of specific use cases, I think anyone recommending Xeon for enterprise solutions is professionally negligent.
  - qayxc 3y ago
    Much of Apple's success in the area seems to stem from the fact that they're simply buying other parties out of the latest manufacturing processes, e.g. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/05/15/apple-has-a-stranglehold-on-the-tsmc-3nm-chip-supply-in-2023 https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/05/15/apple-has-a-stran... So if others want to compete, they'll always be a few years behind, since the fab capacity is reserved to Apple. So any competitor either has to magically improve the architecture dramatically - which they can't, since that would require an architectural license which Apple has, but most others don't - or find a fab that can compete with TSMC's latest tech both in terms of price and available volume.
wmf 3y ago
Coincidentally Ampere One was announced today and it looks pretty mediocre.
- Rafuino 3y ago
  What looks mediocre about it? They're making BIG claims about density and power usage at scale
  - wmf 3y ago
    If they doubled performance and doubled power that's not good.
paulddraper 3y ago
ARM has seen increased adoption, but the chips themselves aren't much different than 4-5 years ago.
neogodless 3y ago
Top AMD consumer x86 CPU over 4.5 generations: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/2966vs3238vs3598vs3862vs5031/AMD-Ryzen-7-1800X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-2700X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3950X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-5950X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-7950X https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/2966vs3238vs3598vs3862v... I think the article is just about server CPUs getting better but the price is keeping them from being significantly better for the price. Of course, in these markets, any increase in power is justified such that the buyers are not price sensitive.

I don't have a feeling ARM offerings are significantly cheaper than x86. There really isn't much magic, a transistor costs the same to manufacture under a given process, regardless of the ISA. In that, RISC-V might get some edge, because ARM licensing is expensive, but I don't think licensing is a significant cost for the x86 crowd. OTOH, the server ARM people are really pushing it: https://www.semianalysis.com/p/sound-the-siyrn-ampereone-192-core https://www.semianalysis.com/p/sound-the-siyrn-ampereone-192... But Altra's ain't cheap.

freedomben 3y ago

not really, there have been some systems built on top of ARM chips that have been impressive, but the chip hardware tech hasn't changed much differently than their x86 counterparts

f6v 3y ago

I’m ignorant about this. Can a Qualcomm or Samsung chip match Intel’s raw power?

mhh__ 3y ago
The leading Arm chip (by apple) is arguably the best in class.
- f6v 3y ago
  I'm well aware of Apple’s success since I’m surrounded by their devices at home. It seems to me it can’t be attributed only to ARM. What I wonder is where’re someone can match Intel on Intel’s playing field, like supplying ARM chips to laptop manufacturers that are better than Intel.
  - JackSlateur 3y ago
    Is there anything ISA-related in this ? Hardly Using the last ASML's technology is a big part of the situation Using on-chip memory is another
- EscapeFromNY 3y ago
  Apple's chips are very power efficent, yes, but the article and parent are talking/asking about raw power. Despite all the Intel hate the past 5 years, I don't think there's been even a moment where another company's leading chip has outperformed Intel's in benchmarks. See for example https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4922vs5022vs5008vs5189/Apple-M2-8-Core-3500-MHz-vs-Intel-i9-13900K-vs-Intel-i5-13600K-vs-Apple-M2-Pro-12-Core-3480-MHz https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/4922vs5022vs5008vs5189/...
  - Reason077 3y ago
    The M2 Pro isn't doing too bad when you consider you're comparing a laptop chip with 14+ hour battery life against Intel's latest and greatest, high-TDP desktop CPU with twice as many cores. On a performance-per-core basis it's not even far behind.
    - e44858 3y ago
      If the TDP is an accurate measure, then the M1 appears to be about as efficient as 12th gen Intel: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html#all-cpu https://www.cpubenchmark.net/power_performance.html#all-cpu
      - Reason077 3y ago
        I wonder if there's some shenanigans going on there. Max TDP in an M1 is surely far lower than the max TDP of an i7-1255U, which it outperforms. Most M1 systems don't even have fans but can perform at max performance for extended times. U-series i7s can also be run fan-less, but performance will be compromised?
  - rocket_surgeron 3y ago
    >125W And that is a lie, to achieve those scores it turbos and consumes 300W+ at turbo. Today, right now, is a moment where AMD's enterprise product are outperforming Intel's in benchmarks. Except for a very small set of specific use cases, I think anyone recommending Xeon for enterprise solutions is professionally negligent.
- qayxc 3y ago
  Much of Apple's success in the area seems to stem from the fact that they're simply buying other parties out of the latest manufacturing processes, e.g. https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/05/15/apple-has-a-stranglehold-on-the-tsmc-3nm-chip-supply-in-2023 https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/05/15/apple-has-a-stran... So if others want to compete, they'll always be a few years behind, since the fab capacity is reserved to Apple. So any competitor either has to magically improve the architecture dramatically - which they can't, since that would require an architectural license which Apple has, but most others don't - or find a fab that can compete with TSMC's latest tech both in terms of price and available volume.

wmf 3y ago

Coincidentally Ampere One was announced today and it looks pretty mediocre.

Rafuino 3y ago
What looks mediocre about it? They're making BIG claims about density and power usage at scale
- wmf 3y ago
  If they doubled performance and doubled power that's not good.

paulddraper 3y ago

ARM has seen increased adoption, but the chips themselves aren't much different than 4-5 years ago.

neogodless 3y ago

Top AMD consumer x86 CPU over 4.5 generations: https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/2966vs3238vs3598vs3862vs5031/AMD-Ryzen-7-1800X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-7-2700X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-3950X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-5950X-vs-AMD-Ryzen-9-7950X https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/2966vs3238vs3598vs3862v... I think the article is just about server CPUs getting better but the price is keeping them from being significantly better for the price. Of course, in these markets, any increase in power is justified such that the buyers are not price sensitive.