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This is a projection. Claiming solidarity is in the “treaties” yet your reaction to east europe wanting change in policy is “leave if you don’t like it”. Such

This is a projection. Claiming solidarity is in the “treaties” yet your reaction to east europe wanting change in policy is “leave if you don’t like it”. Such is the eu.

toyg 3y ago
Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. Any country who wants to alter the current setup, will have to renounce this state of things. Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. It has become clear, even in this thread, that certain countries probably never shared the founding principles of the community, and bringing them in as quickly as it was done might have been premature. For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  > Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? That is correct. > Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. > Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. A little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010, I believe, corruption, financial crime, fiscal irresponsibility etc where mentioned. I remember around the time there were frequent calls for PIGS to leave the EU since, unlike east europe, those countries nearly collapsed the project and the euro zone. > For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time. A review of the current state of affairs is in order, but I doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > That is correct. That's not arrogant at all, lol. Particularly when it's based on falsehoods like the ones stated above-thread. > In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Er, no, that's still very much accurate. Eastern countries are in the EU for the practical advantages, and those advantages are the result of the solidarity framework established in Rome. > Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. Lol, citation needed. > little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010 Absolutely. The country made sacrifices to stay in the Union, for practical and ideological reasons, and it's one of the main movers behind actual policy-making. Even just Mario Draghi did more for the Union than most Eastern politicians likely ever will. > i doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this. Whereas I'm sure the third largest market in the Union will have a say.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      > That's not arrogant at all, lol. Particularly when it's based on falsehoods like the ones stated above-thread. Facts are not arrogance and lies. > Eastern countries are in the EU for the practical advantages, and those advantages are the result of the solidarity framework established in Rome. There is no solidarity other than on paper, as the war in Ukraine has proven in its early days. It wasn't until the US, UK and east Europe pressured western europe to get off it's backside and something about it. Particularly since european "solidarity" meant that east european calls for taming russia have been ignored and worse western europe financed russia and forced an unhealthy reliance on their resources. > Lol, citation needed. Quatargate springs to mind. Unheard of in the early days of the EC. > Absolutely. The country made sacrifices to stay in the Union, for practical and ideological reasons, and it's one of the main movers behind actual policy-making. Even just Mario Draghi did more for the Union than most Eastern politicians likely ever will. Insignificant to efforts made by east EU to rebuild countries, political systems and social structures. > Whereas I'm sure the third largest market in the Union will have a say. East Europe is the second largest economy of europe. Larger than nort or south europe. If the trend continues, it may even revert to pre 70s levels - a rather likely outcome - where it was the largest. Look, i understand you are upset that your country and region is being overtaken, but be fair and play the game. No need for emotions and tantrums, they won't change facts.

This is a projection. Claiming solidarity is in the “treaties” yet your reaction to east europe wanting change in policy is “leave if you don’t like it”. Such is the eu.

toyg 3y ago

Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. Any country who wants to alter the current setup, will have to renounce this state of things. Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. It has become clear, even in this thread, that certain countries probably never shared the founding principles of the community, and bringing them in as quickly as it was done might have been premature. For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time.

gumballindie 3y ago
> Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? That is correct. > Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. > Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. A little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010, I believe, corruption, financial crime, fiscal irresponsibility etc where mentioned. I remember around the time there were frequent calls for PIGS to leave the EU since, unlike east europe, those countries nearly collapsed the project and the euro zone. > For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time. A review of the current state of affairs is in order, but I doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this.
- toyg 3y ago
  > That is correct. That's not arrogant at all, lol. Particularly when it's based on falsehoods like the ones stated above-thread. > In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Er, no, that's still very much accurate. Eastern countries are in the EU for the practical advantages, and those advantages are the result of the solidarity framework established in Rome. > Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. Lol, citation needed. > little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010 Absolutely. The country made sacrifices to stay in the Union, for practical and ideological reasons, and it's one of the main movers behind actual policy-making. Even just Mario Draghi did more for the Union than most Eastern politicians likely ever will. > i doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this. Whereas I'm sure the third largest market in the Union will have a say.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    > That's not arrogant at all, lol. Particularly when it's based on falsehoods like the ones stated above-thread. Facts are not arrogance and lies. > Eastern countries are in the EU for the practical advantages, and those advantages are the result of the solidarity framework established in Rome. There is no solidarity other than on paper, as the war in Ukraine has proven in its early days. It wasn't until the US, UK and east Europe pressured western europe to get off it's backside and something about it. Particularly since european "solidarity" meant that east european calls for taming russia have been ignored and worse western europe financed russia and forced an unhealthy reliance on their resources. > Lol, citation needed. Quatargate springs to mind. Unheard of in the early days of the EC. > Absolutely. The country made sacrifices to stay in the Union, for practical and ideological reasons, and it's one of the main movers behind actual policy-making. Even just Mario Draghi did more for the Union than most Eastern politicians likely ever will. Insignificant to efforts made by east EU to rebuild countries, political systems and social structures. > Whereas I'm sure the third largest market in the Union will have a say. East Europe is the second largest economy of europe. Larger than nort or south europe. If the trend continues, it may even revert to pre 70s levels - a rather likely outcome - where it was the largest. Look, i understand you are upset that your country and region is being overtaken, but be fair and play the game. No need for emotions and tantrums, they won't change facts.