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> Office buildings are fireproofed in ways residential units are not. One can also replace windows with proximity to a fireproof stairwell without compromising

> Office buildings are fireproofed in ways residential units are not. One can also replace windows with proximity to a fireproof stairwell without compromising safety. You can't, really. The way that emergency exits are laid out in office buildings is different from the way that they're laid out in residential buildings, and that's done because the safety needs of residential buildings are different from the typical safety needs of office buildings. It would be more expensive to build office buildings with those requirements from the get-go, so few dedicated office have them (particularly the larger skyscrapers that we're talking about). You can either retrofit the core of the building (very expensive) or you can redesign the unit size and shape to conform to the existing building core (less expensive, but results in layouts that cannot be sold at the price the building owners require - the exact problem discussed in the article). > The point is there are places we can make tradeoffs. They're just not the kind Manhattan voters like. To make that claim, you'd have to point to actual tradeoffs that could be made without significantly compromising safety, and which aren't being done because "Manhattan voters" have rejected them. And as someone who probably has a much better understanding of NYC commercial and residential building codes than the typical HN reader, I'm really only aware of one, and even that is only really being advocated for smaller and mid-size buildings, not the tall skyscrapers discussed in this article. > I'm winging this. Yes, I can see that.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> that's done because the safety needs of residential buildings are different from the typical safety needs of office buildings You're acting like residential retrofits have never been done. They have. These are workable problems. As others point out, the killer is plumbing. Not fire escape. > only really being advocated for smaller and mid-size buildings, not the tall skyscrapers discussed in this article Most of New York City's CRE tax revenue comes from mid-sized offices. Not from skyscrapers. Everything I'm suggesting is aimed at, and has been proposed for, those. > I'm really only aware of one There are many more. I'm winging the solutions. Not the capacity for them, which has been and is being studied by architects, engineers and psychologists.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > You're acting like residential retrofits have never been done. They have. These are workable problems. I didn't say residential retrofitting can't be done. I said that they can't be done while still demanding the resale value (read: net profit) that the building owners are demanding. > Most of New York City's CRE tax revenue comes from mid-sized offices. Not from skyscrapers. This comment thread is on an article titled "NYC Skyscrapers Sit Vacant, Exposing Risk City Never Predicted". So we're talking about things that apply to skyscrapers. > As others point out, the killer is plumbing. Not fire escape. There are multiple issues. I addressed fire escape only because you brought it up, not because it's the only issue. Again, this whole thread is in response to your claim that the limiting factor is "aesthetic requirements" in the building code that are not motivated by safety concerns. So far, you haven't pointed out any.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > "aesthetic requirements" in the building code that are not motivated by safety concerns. So far, you haven't pointed out any. Yes, I have [1]. Communal water, toilets and showers. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35989481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35989481
    - chimeracoder 3y ago
      > Yes, I have [1]. Communal water, toilets and showers. No, because that's non-prohibitive under current building code. Contrary to popular misconception, it's permissible to have communal facilities; it's just not economically viable, in part because it's extremely undesirable to live in.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        Again, because of the other fixed costs of development. When those units come on the market there is ample demand. That doesn’t work if you have to price in years of community board and planning meetings.
- 3y ago
hedora 3y ago
> at the price the building owners require Supply and demand will fix this. Real estate speculators will eventually realize they've already lost the money they put into the building, then sell it at a loss (or at bankruptcy). Then, the residential conversions will happen, producing a supply of large, irregularly shaped manhattan condos that will certainly sell. Capitalism does have its advantages.
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Supply and demand will fix this. Real estate speculators will eventually realize they've already lost the money they put into the building, then sell it at a loss (or at bankruptcy). Then, the residential conversions will happen, producing a supply of large, irregularly shaped manhattan condos that will certainly sell. > > Capitalism does have its advantages. The inherent land value is so astronomical and the cost of retrofitting is so high that, at virtually any price, most developers would decide it's more economical to raze the building and start over, designing a residential building from scratch with cookie-cutter units that can be sold for maximum profit.
  - nocoiner 3y ago
    One problem is that the owner of the land, the owner of the building, and the developer are generally separate and distinct. In my experience the vast majority of property owners - especially those with the wherewithal to own prime CBD real estate - tend to be quite happy to sit on unproductive land for a very long time. If any of these buildings get razed, my guess is that many landowners would rather turn it into a parking lot for half a decade than let a developer turn it into something cookie cutter.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> that's done because the safety needs of residential buildings are different from the typical safety needs of office buildings You're acting like residential retrofits have never been done. They have. These are workable problems. As others point out, the killer is plumbing. Not fire escape. > only really being advocated for smaller and mid-size buildings, not the tall skyscrapers discussed in this article Most of New York City's CRE tax revenue comes from mid-sized offices. Not from skyscrapers. Everything I'm suggesting is aimed at, and has been proposed for, those. > I'm really only aware of one There are many more. I'm winging the solutions. Not the capacity for them, which has been and is being studied by architects, engineers and psychologists.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> You're acting like residential retrofits have never been done. They have. These are workable problems. I didn't say residential retrofitting can't be done. I said that they can't be done while still demanding the resale value (read: net profit) that the building owners are demanding. > Most of New York City's CRE tax revenue comes from mid-sized offices. Not from skyscrapers. This comment thread is on an article titled "NYC Skyscrapers Sit Vacant, Exposing Risk City Never Predicted". So we're talking about things that apply to skyscrapers. > As others point out, the killer is plumbing. Not fire escape. There are multiple issues. I addressed fire escape only because you brought it up, not because it's the only issue. Again, this whole thread is in response to your claim that the limiting factor is "aesthetic requirements" in the building code that are not motivated by safety concerns. So far, you haven't pointed out any.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > "aesthetic requirements" in the building code that are not motivated by safety concerns. So far, you haven't pointed out any. Yes, I have [1]. Communal water, toilets and showers. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35989481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35989481
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > Yes, I have [1]. Communal water, toilets and showers. No, because that's non-prohibitive under current building code. Contrary to popular misconception, it's permissible to have communal facilities; it's just not economically viable, in part because it's extremely undesirable to live in.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      Again, because of the other fixed costs of development. When those units come on the market there is ample demand. That doesn’t work if you have to price in years of community board and planning meetings.
3y ago

hedora 3y ago

> at the price the building owners require Supply and demand will fix this. Real estate speculators will eventually realize they've already lost the money they put into the building, then sell it at a loss (or at bankruptcy). Then, the residential conversions will happen, producing a supply of large, irregularly shaped manhattan condos that will certainly sell. Capitalism does have its advantages.

chimeracoder 3y ago
> Supply and demand will fix this. Real estate speculators will eventually realize they've already lost the money they put into the building, then sell it at a loss (or at bankruptcy). Then, the residential conversions will happen, producing a supply of large, irregularly shaped manhattan condos that will certainly sell. > > Capitalism does have its advantages. The inherent land value is so astronomical and the cost of retrofitting is so high that, at virtually any price, most developers would decide it's more economical to raze the building and start over, designing a residential building from scratch with cookie-cutter units that can be sold for maximum profit.
- nocoiner 3y ago
  One problem is that the owner of the land, the owner of the building, and the developer are generally separate and distinct. In my experience the vast majority of property owners - especially those with the wherewithal to own prime CBD real estate - tend to be quite happy to sit on unproductive land for a very long time. If any of these buildings get razed, my guess is that many landowners would rather turn it into a parking lot for half a decade than let a developer turn it into something cookie cutter.