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I'm often discouraged by comments on Hacker News that downplay the importance of great design in a design-heavy medium. This game isn't succeeding primarily be

I'm often discouraged by comments on Hacker News that downplay the importance of great design in a design-heavy medium. This game isn't succeeding primarily because of great marketing, franchise, or blind loyalty to Nintendo (though all of those help!). It's succeeding primarily because it's the follow-up to a game that critics and players universally found enormously fun. Before Breath of the Wild previous Zelda entries did not sell this well.

kramerger 3y ago
Counterpoint: Ask random old gamer to list his top 5 games. Chances are at least two will be zelda games. Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/13jurfi/only_8_games_ever_have_been_scored_a_perfect_10/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/13jurfi/only_8_game...
- kettlecorn 3y ago
  That's not a counterpoint. More serious gamers have always loved Zelda and the series has always sold well amongst that audience. But this game (and Breath of the Wild) is selling above and beyond previous entries because it's such a great game that its appeal reaches well beyond Zelda's traditional audience.
munificent 3y ago
> Before Breath of the Wild previous Zelda entries did not sell this well. Breath of the Wild was certainly the best-seller, but nearly every Zelda game has been a knock-out success selling millions of copies. I think Breath of the Wild is an outlier among them in part because it was out during the pandemic. I know a whole lot of people who bought a Switch during the lockdown and poured hours into escapism with that game.
- kettlecorn 3y ago
  The previous mainline Zelda entries sold 7.58, 10, and 6.79 million respectively for Skyward Sword, Twilight Princess, and Wind Waker. Breath of the Wild has sold 30.7 million total so far, Tears of the Kingdom sold 10 million in its first 3 days. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda Tears of the Kingdom is selling crazy numbers even without the lockdown boost. Other factors make a difference but the core of what drives the sale of these two titles is that they're great games people strongly want to play.
cheald 3y ago
I disagree; Zelda games have always been a major draw for Nintendo audiences. Link to the Past was the best-selling game of 1991; Link's Awakening - released in 1993 on the Gameboy - was a defining game for Nintendo at the time and was directly responsible for a massive uptake in Gameboy sales (and was the best-selling game of the year.) OoT was an absolutely industry-defining success; it was the best-selling game of 1998, and it's the highest-rated video game of all time on Metacritic. Zelda games have always moved consoles and sold well; in terms of Nintendo's unit-movers, it's second only to Mario. Of course the raw numbers look more impressive for BotW - there are 122m Switch units worldwide (and 30m BotW sales), but the N64 only shipped 33m units worldwide over its 8-year lifespan, and OoT still sold 7.6m copies (with another 6.4m on the 3DS).
- kettlecorn 3y ago
  My point is that it's the strength of the design, not the loyalty to the franchise or other factors, that is the primary driver of sales. The titles you cite (Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time) also made sales records because they were so good they reached a wider audience. But if you look at historical sales a mainline Zelda entry usually sells 6m to 10m. Breath of the Wild sold 30 million and Tears of the Kingdom looks to be on a similar trajectory. That's due to the strength of the game design that's broadened the appeal well beyond the typical Zelda gamer.
- rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
  I think the point the person you replied to was making was that BotW and TotK aren't just selling due to Zelda nostalgia. There are lots adults with college degrees now that are playing this game who weren't even in kindergarten yet (or born!) when the games you mentioned were released.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
waboremo 3y ago
BOTW has the same attachment rate as Windwaker and Ocarina of Time, which nullifies the argument that Zelda has sold poorly until BOTW. Attachment rates are important, better than pure sales, because it tells you how many potential buyers bought the game. BOTW and TOTK are still huge successes, but it's not really about great design (unfortunately). If it was, every one of Nintendo's games would be record smashing sellers, but they aren't. They have plenty of games that don't make a dent despite their insane attention to detail. We saw this with Mario Maker 1 & 2, not even cracking 10m copies to this day, and one can't even blame lack of name recognition, it's literally Mario! Where great design does have impact is on long term word of mouth sales. Which we saw with BOTW and are likely to see here again.
- kettlecorn 3y ago
  I did not say that the Zelda franchise has sold poorly, just less well than BOTW / TOTK. I don't think attach rates offer the full picture. Early on the audience for BOTW was so eager for the game they were buying the Switch just for BOTW. For a period the attach-rate was greater than 100%! But the Switch has broad appeal and the attach-rate of BOTW has declined as more types of gamers buy-in to the Switch. The Gamecube and (to a lesser extent) the Nintendo64 had less success than the Switch outside of core Nintendo fans which naturally means franchises like Zelda would have higher attach rates. Mario Mario 1 & 2 are both well-designed executions of a concept that appeals to a more limited audience (building and playing user-made Mario levels). BOTW / TOTK hit that sweet spot of widely appealing concept and excellent execution.
martin82 3y ago
Previous Zelda games were released in a world where gaming was not yet a mainstream activity.
- kettlecorn 3y ago
  The Wii sold ~101 million units (the Switch is currently at ~120 million) and its two mainline Zelda games sold 7.4 million and 3.67 million. Contrast that with BOTW at 30 million and ToTK at 10 million in 3 days.

kramerger 3y ago

Counterpoint: Ask random old gamer to list his top 5 games. Chances are at least two will be zelda games. Also: https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/13jurfi/only_8_games_ever_have_been_scored_a_perfect_10/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/13jurfi/only_8_game...

kettlecorn 3y ago
That's not a counterpoint. More serious gamers have always loved Zelda and the series has always sold well amongst that audience. But this game (and Breath of the Wild) is selling above and beyond previous entries because it's such a great game that its appeal reaches well beyond Zelda's traditional audience.

munificent 3y ago

> Before Breath of the Wild previous Zelda entries did not sell this well. Breath of the Wild was certainly the best-seller, but nearly every Zelda game has been a knock-out success selling millions of copies. I think Breath of the Wild is an outlier among them in part because it was out during the pandemic. I know a whole lot of people who bought a Switch during the lockdown and poured hours into escapism with that game.

kettlecorn 3y ago
The previous mainline Zelda entries sold 7.58, 10, and 6.79 million respectively for Skyward Sword, Twilight Princess, and Wind Waker. Breath of the Wild has sold 30.7 million total so far, Tears of the Kingdom sold 10 million in its first 3 days. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Legend_of_Zelda Tears of the Kingdom is selling crazy numbers even without the lockdown boost. Other factors make a difference but the core of what drives the sale of these two titles is that they're great games people strongly want to play.

cheald 3y ago

I disagree; Zelda games have always been a major draw for Nintendo audiences. Link to the Past was the best-selling game of 1991; Link's Awakening - released in 1993 on the Gameboy - was a defining game for Nintendo at the time and was directly responsible for a massive uptake in Gameboy sales (and was the best-selling game of the year.) OoT was an absolutely industry-defining success; it was the best-selling game of 1998, and it's the highest-rated video game of all time on Metacritic. Zelda games have always moved consoles and sold well; in terms of Nintendo's unit-movers, it's second only to Mario. Of course the raw numbers look more impressive for BotW - there are 122m Switch units worldwide (and 30m BotW sales), but the N64 only shipped 33m units worldwide over its 8-year lifespan, and OoT still sold 7.6m copies (with another 6.4m on the 3DS).

kettlecorn 3y ago
My point is that it's the strength of the design, not the loyalty to the franchise or other factors, that is the primary driver of sales. The titles you cite (Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time) also made sales records because they were so good they reached a wider audience. But if you look at historical sales a mainline Zelda entry usually sells 6m to 10m. Breath of the Wild sold 30 million and Tears of the Kingdom looks to be on a similar trajectory. That's due to the strength of the game design that's broadened the appeal well beyond the typical Zelda gamer.
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 3y ago
I think the point the person you replied to was making was that BotW and TotK aren't just selling due to Zelda nostalgia. There are lots adults with college degrees now that are playing this game who weren't even in kindergarten yet (or born!) when the games you mentioned were released.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

waboremo 3y ago

BOTW has the same attachment rate as Windwaker and Ocarina of Time, which nullifies the argument that Zelda has sold poorly until BOTW. Attachment rates are important, better than pure sales, because it tells you how many potential buyers bought the game. BOTW and TOTK are still huge successes, but it's not really about great design (unfortunately). If it was, every one of Nintendo's games would be record smashing sellers, but they aren't. They have plenty of games that don't make a dent despite their insane attention to detail. We saw this with Mario Maker 1 & 2, not even cracking 10m copies to this day, and one can't even blame lack of name recognition, it's literally Mario! Where great design does have impact is on long term word of mouth sales. Which we saw with BOTW and are likely to see here again.

kettlecorn 3y ago
I did not say that the Zelda franchise has sold poorly, just less well than BOTW / TOTK. I don't think attach rates offer the full picture. Early on the audience for BOTW was so eager for the game they were buying the Switch just for BOTW. For a period the attach-rate was greater than 100%! But the Switch has broad appeal and the attach-rate of BOTW has declined as more types of gamers buy-in to the Switch. The Gamecube and (to a lesser extent) the Nintendo64 had less success than the Switch outside of core Nintendo fans which naturally means franchises like Zelda would have higher attach rates. Mario Mario 1 & 2 are both well-designed executions of a concept that appeals to a more limited audience (building and playing user-made Mario levels). BOTW / TOTK hit that sweet spot of widely appealing concept and excellent execution.

martin82 3y ago

Previous Zelda games were released in a world where gaming was not yet a mainstream activity.

kettlecorn 3y ago
The Wii sold ~101 million units (the Switch is currently at ~120 million) and its two mainline Zelda games sold 7.4 million and 3.67 million. Contrast that with BOTW at 30 million and ToTK at 10 million in 3 days.