5 ms·

Gruber was telling that the Apple ID was going to be free. It isn't. It requires a Mac Developer account as far as I could understand it. When I was 15 I wrote

by pilif 15y ago

Gruber was telling that the Apple ID was going to be free. It isn't. It requires a Mac Developer account as far as I could understand it. When I was 15 I wrote a Taskbar dialer for Windows 9x and later NT (this was in the modem days. Of course I haven't updated it in ages and the only reason my old webpage is still there is because I found it by accident in an old backup, but here is a google search for it: https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=RasInTask https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=RasInTask). I published that on the various download pages and it was good enough to even be featured in dead-tree publications. Back then I had no permission to use a computer ("they make you stupid" was my parents argument) and certainly no credit card to pay anybody to do development - and even then, as a minor I would probably never have gotten that certificate. With this rule in place I would never have been able to publish that dialer. I would never have felt how it is to make something that others can use and find useful. I would never have ended up where I am today. Does this stop malware? Does this stop fraudulent call centers? Does this stop malicious people from telling people to turn it off and then still installing the malware? No. Does it stop people like me from ever getting to their career of their dreams? Likely. I might be an old fart, but this is far from acceptable.

jbrennan 15y ago
>Back then I had no permission to use a computer ("they make you stupid" was my parents argument) and certainly no credit card to pay anybody to do development - and even then, as a minor I would probably never have gotten that certificate. Yes but things change. Old fart or not, you're into technology, we all have to realize things change!
- chairface 15y ago
  And he's saying that this change is for the worse. He has made substantive arguments, and you have responded with a useless platitude.
Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
Hold on, XCode is free (without a developer login) you could install that and write the app. You can then publish it on websites exactly as you did and those who choose the appropriate security setting can run it. You have a smaller audience yes, but you can still do what you did. And while this doesn't stop Malware, it does raise the bar a little higher. Out of interest how would you feel about it if developer licenses were free for students?
- pilif 15y ago
  Out of interest how would you feel about it if developer licenses were free for students? I would be much happier (to the effect of actually seeing more good than bad in this restriction) if getting that ID was a matter of filling out a form an passing a turing test - so, for example, if any apple ID could be used to get a signing certificate, that would be much better. (edit: this is not about the money. It's about they way of payment (minors don't have credit cards) and the required paperwork that, among other things, require you to be an adult)
  - Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
    That's interesting. My feeling is that the problem her is with the Apple Developer network rather than the functionality - I think the functionality just highlights the problem. Personally I'd like to see the price on Developer licenses dropped and made free for full time or part time students. I think it would make commercial and PR sense for Apple too - show that they are developer friendly and make the Mac attractive as the machine of choice for the next generation of programmers (who will then also be a shoe in on coding iOS apps).
    - brudgers 15y ago
      Historically, Apple has rarely provided free software, hardware or services to the education market. It appears to me that their strategy since the Apple II days has generally been to monetize the education industry to the highest level the market will allow. They may offer small student discounts off of list price on college campus bookstores, but I suspect it increases sales more than enough to raise profits.
  - sirn 15y ago
    I'm willing to bet that Apple is going to allow free certificates without having to pay a cent when Mountain Lion launches; Apple already did this for Safari Extensions, for example. (Safari Extensions must be signed, but anyone can request for a cert.) It's also interesting that Apple is using the word "the _new_ Developer ID" in their developer site[1]. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mountain-lion/ https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mountain-lion/
batista 15y ago
Back then I had no permission to use a computer ("they make you stupid" was my parents argument) and certainly no credit card to pay anybody to do development - and even then, as a minor I would probably never have gotten that certificate. The computer isn't free either. And you can always build and distribute without the ID or the certificate. This is just for distribution through the App Store or to users that have it set to only allow signed apps. Does this stop malware? Does this stop fraudulent call centers? Does this stop malicious people from telling people to turn it off and then still installing the malware? No. "No" to the last question, maybe. On the other hand, it stops tons of malware. Signed binaries is considered one of the most successful anti-malware strategies by security experts. Are you saying otherwise? Does it stop people like me from ever getting to their career of their dreams? Likely. Well, if you are that easily discouraged, then maybe that career wasn't really for you, anyway. You present an edge case ("I need to build and distribute my software to OS X users AND I want those users to not only allow signed apps BECAUSE I can't fork $100 dollars for a developer certificate"). If that kind of thing discourages you from "getting to the career of your dreams" what to say about the hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of toil needed to become a doctor, a lawyer, not to mention the hard learning needed to become a professional programmer.
- pilif 15y ago
  The computer isn't free either. And you can always build and distribute without the ID or the certificate. This is just for distribution through the App Store or to users that have it set to only allow signed apps. The latter is the default. So for other people to use this application I wrote as a minor, my users would have to change the setting. Well, if you are that easily discouraged, then maybe that career wasn't really for you, anyway. This would not have stopped me, but imagine what kind of an ego-boost it is for a 15 years old sufferer of heavy bullying due to overall geekyness to see his home-grown application not just be used by other people but actually getting mentioned in paper publications. Nowadays I couldn't even get /permission/ to try because these various developer programs require you to be an adult due to various organizational issues. Honestly, without that ego boost when it happened, I don't know where I would stand today, if at all. But this is my story. I have a feeling that I'm losing objectivity here due to heavy emotional involvement. I'll be quiet in this topic from now on and just turn that switch off for myself, hoping that there will be a switch to turn off in the future.
pwthornton 15y ago
$100 does not stop anyone from realizing their dreams. Teenagers know how to make extra cash. $100 is less than 2 days work at a minimum wage job. I would much rather have teenagers work to be able to pay $100 to distribute signed applications than make it free for anyone (malware makers) to distribute signed apps. The trade off isn't even close here. It's free to develop the app, and even distribute it outside of the app store. If you want to go into the app store, you'll need $100, which helps keep software more secure for millions of people.
- rmc 15y ago
  Some teenagers cannot legally work.
calloc 15y ago
An Apple ID is indeed free. I've had an Apple ID for downloading Xcode for years now. At the moment the only way to get an app signing key is by purchasing a $99 license (which also gets you publishing privileges in the App Store) but it is extremely likely that in the future getting a signing key will be completely free and will not require a $99 license fee. It won't get you App Store submittal and won't get you publishing on the App Store, but I think that is fair.

by pilif 15y ago

jbrennan 15y ago

>Back then I had no permission to use a computer ("they make you stupid" was my parents argument) and certainly no credit card to pay anybody to do development - and even then, as a minor I would probably never have gotten that certificate. Yes but things change. Old fart or not, you're into technology, we all have to realize things change!

chairface 15y ago
And he's saying that this change is for the worse. He has made substantive arguments, and you have responded with a useless platitude.

Tyrannosaurs 15y ago

Hold on, XCode is free (without a developer login) you could install that and write the app. You can then publish it on websites exactly as you did and those who choose the appropriate security setting can run it. You have a smaller audience yes, but you can still do what you did. And while this doesn't stop Malware, it does raise the bar a little higher. Out of interest how would you feel about it if developer licenses were free for students?

pilif 15y ago
Out of interest how would you feel about it if developer licenses were free for students? I would be much happier (to the effect of actually seeing more good than bad in this restriction) if getting that ID was a matter of filling out a form an passing a turing test - so, for example, if any apple ID could be used to get a signing certificate, that would be much better. (edit: this is not about the money. It's about they way of payment (minors don't have credit cards) and the required paperwork that, among other things, require you to be an adult)
- Tyrannosaurs 15y ago
  That's interesting. My feeling is that the problem her is with the Apple Developer network rather than the functionality - I think the functionality just highlights the problem. Personally I'd like to see the price on Developer licenses dropped and made free for full time or part time students. I think it would make commercial and PR sense for Apple too - show that they are developer friendly and make the Mac attractive as the machine of choice for the next generation of programmers (who will then also be a shoe in on coding iOS apps).
  - brudgers 15y ago
    Historically, Apple has rarely provided free software, hardware or services to the education market. It appears to me that their strategy since the Apple II days has generally been to monetize the education industry to the highest level the market will allow. They may offer small student discounts off of list price on college campus bookstores, but I suspect it increases sales more than enough to raise profits.
- sirn 15y ago
  I'm willing to bet that Apple is going to allow free certificates without having to pay a cent when Mountain Lion launches; Apple already did this for Safari Extensions, for example. (Safari Extensions must be signed, but anyone can request for a cert.) It's also interesting that Apple is using the word "the _new_ Developer ID" in their developer site[1]. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mountain-lion/ https://developer.apple.com/technologies/mountain-lion/

batista 15y ago

Back then I had no permission to use a computer ("they make you stupid" was my parents argument) and certainly no credit card to pay anybody to do development - and even then, as a minor I would probably never have gotten that certificate. The computer isn't free either. And you can always build and distribute without the ID or the certificate. This is just for distribution through the App Store or to users that have it set to only allow signed apps. Does this stop malware? Does this stop fraudulent call centers? Does this stop malicious people from telling people to turn it off and then still installing the malware? No. "No" to the last question, maybe. On the other hand, it stops tons of malware. Signed binaries is considered one of the most successful anti-malware strategies by security experts. Are you saying otherwise? Does it stop people like me from ever getting to their career of their dreams? Likely. Well, if you are that easily discouraged, then maybe that career wasn't really for you, anyway. You present an edge case ("I need to build and distribute my software to OS X users AND I want those users to not only allow signed apps BECAUSE I can't fork $100 dollars for a developer certificate"). If that kind of thing discourages you from "getting to the career of your dreams" what to say about the hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of toil needed to become a doctor, a lawyer, not to mention the hard learning needed to become a professional programmer.

pilif 15y ago
The computer isn't free either. And you can always build and distribute without the ID or the certificate. This is just for distribution through the App Store or to users that have it set to only allow signed apps. The latter is the default. So for other people to use this application I wrote as a minor, my users would have to change the setting. Well, if you are that easily discouraged, then maybe that career wasn't really for you, anyway. This would not have stopped me, but imagine what kind of an ego-boost it is for a 15 years old sufferer of heavy bullying due to overall geekyness to see his home-grown application not just be used by other people but actually getting mentioned in paper publications. Nowadays I couldn't even get /permission/ to try because these various developer programs require you to be an adult due to various organizational issues. Honestly, without that ego boost when it happened, I don't know where I would stand today, if at all. But this is my story. I have a feeling that I'm losing objectivity here due to heavy emotional involvement. I'll be quiet in this topic from now on and just turn that switch off for myself, hoping that there will be a switch to turn off in the future.

pwthornton 15y ago

$100 does not stop anyone from realizing their dreams. Teenagers know how to make extra cash. $100 is less than 2 days work at a minimum wage job. I would much rather have teenagers work to be able to pay $100 to distribute signed applications than make it free for anyone (malware makers) to distribute signed apps. The trade off isn't even close here. It's free to develop the app, and even distribute it outside of the app store. If you want to go into the app store, you'll need $100, which helps keep software more secure for millions of people.

rmc 15y ago
Some teenagers cannot legally work.

calloc 15y ago

An Apple ID is indeed free. I've had an Apple ID for downloading Xcode for years now. At the moment the only way to get an app signing key is by purchasing a $99 license (which also gets you publishing privileges in the App Store) but it is extremely likely that in the future getting a signing key will be completely free and will not require a $99 license fee. It won't get you App Store submittal and won't get you publishing on the App Store, but I think that is fair.