4 ms·

i don't know much about Europe, would you mind adding some sophistication to above comment?

gumballindie 3y ago
It has been proven that west european products made by west european companies sold in east europe are of low quality and sometimes even more expensive: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-europe/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-... Claims east europeans “displaced jobs” from west europe yet east europeans have been forced to migrate to western europe due to a lack of jobs. How have jobs been moved to east europe when people leave precisely because there are no jobs? They also claim that east europe was meant to provide “cheap labour” for richer nations in the eu - basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor so they can work in factories. Somehow they should be thankful for that. The list continues and is a good indication of the underlying issues that plague european “solidarity”. What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape where if you dont like it you are told to get out.
- toyg 3y ago
  Nobody was forced to do anything; migration started almost immediately after 1989-90, simply because the eastern economic and social landscape was depleted after the failures of the '80s. Delocalization took a bit longer simply because it required institutional stability, which some countries achieved faster than others. Volkswagen were already making parts in Chzechia in the mid-90s, do you think they were making twice the parts they needed...? > basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor That's not what delocalization does; in the long run it inevitably leads to wage growth in target countries - it happened even in China. The "plan", or rather intuition of some political players of the time, was simply to exploit lower salaries as long as it was possible, knowing full well that it wouldn't be forever. > What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape. As I said, nobody is forced to stay in. If those countries stay in, it's because they know which side their bread is buttered.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    It is a sad state of affairs when italians talk about obedience in exchange for bread and butter. Perhaps a skill gained after causing the largest financial disaster in eu’s history, together with other south european countries. Instead east europe demands a level playing field so it doesnt have to rely on eu funding, partly needed due to misguided policies. If Italy doesnt like this then it can leave. East europe is increasingly more relevant.
    - swexbe 3y ago
      "The evil westerners are keeping us poor and our people are emigrating" vs "East europe is increasingly more relevant" You appear to have some cognitive dissonance.
      - gumballindie 3y ago
        > The evil westerners Never said that.
    - toyg 3y ago
      > italians talk about obedience in exchange for bread and butter I've never used that word, that's your own insecurities talking. What people want is not obedience, is respect: respect for the founding principles of the community they joined, and respect for the solidarity that the founders extend every day to them. Instead, certain elements in Eastern Europe demand more and more, without ever giving anything back. > If Italy doesnt like this then it can leave. Sure, but why should we leave a house we built, that we still fundamentally believe in, and that we know we benefit from in various ways...? Obviously we won't. It's much more likely that we will simply continue to work to improve the house rules. > East europe is increasingly more relevant. Lol. I'm not sure you noticed, but Visegrad is dead. In EU institutions, the great killer is isolation. The more you beat your chest, the less you will get.

It has been proven that west european products made by west european companies sold in east europe are of low quality and sometimes even more expensive: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-europe/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-... Claims east europeans “displaced jobs” from west europe yet east europeans have been forced to migrate to western europe due to a lack of jobs. How have jobs been moved to east europe when people leave precisely because there are no jobs? They also claim that east europe was meant to provide “cheap labour” for richer nations in the eu - basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor so they can work in factories. Somehow they should be thankful for that. The list continues and is a good indication of the underlying issues that plague european “solidarity”. What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape where if you dont like it you are told to get out.

toyg 3y ago
Nobody was forced to do anything; migration started almost immediately after 1989-90, simply because the eastern economic and social landscape was depleted after the failures of the '80s. Delocalization took a bit longer simply because it required institutional stability, which some countries achieved faster than others. Volkswagen were already making parts in Chzechia in the mid-90s, do you think they were making twice the parts they needed...? > basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor That's not what delocalization does; in the long run it inevitably leads to wage growth in target countries - it happened even in China. The "plan", or rather intuition of some political players of the time, was simply to exploit lower salaries as long as it was possible, knowing full well that it wouldn't be forever. > What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape. As I said, nobody is forced to stay in. If those countries stay in, it's because they know which side their bread is buttered.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  It is a sad state of affairs when italians talk about obedience in exchange for bread and butter. Perhaps a skill gained after causing the largest financial disaster in eu’s history, together with other south european countries. Instead east europe demands a level playing field so it doesnt have to rely on eu funding, partly needed due to misguided policies. If Italy doesnt like this then it can leave. East europe is increasingly more relevant.
  - swexbe 3y ago
    "The evil westerners are keeping us poor and our people are emigrating" vs "East europe is increasingly more relevant" You appear to have some cognitive dissonance.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      > The evil westerners Never said that.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > italians talk about obedience in exchange for bread and butter I've never used that word, that's your own insecurities talking. What people want is not obedience, is respect: respect for the founding principles of the community they joined, and respect for the solidarity that the founders extend every day to them. Instead, certain elements in Eastern Europe demand more and more, without ever giving anything back. > If Italy doesnt like this then it can leave. Sure, but why should we leave a house we built, that we still fundamentally believe in, and that we know we benefit from in various ways...? Obviously we won't. It's much more likely that we will simply continue to work to improve the house rules. > East europe is increasingly more relevant. Lol. I'm not sure you noticed, but Visegrad is dead. In EU institutions, the great killer is isolation. The more you beat your chest, the less you will get.