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I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complainin

I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses you mentioned that it created and for the trade tariffs they no longer charge when importing them sweet, subsidised, german cars.

eropple 3y ago
> I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. This doesn't follow at all unless you somehow are able to tell that the poster to whom you reply didn't vote Remain. "Your fellow citizens bought into lies splattered on the side of a bus, shut up" is not the dunk you think it is.
toyg 3y ago
I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. > Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses How do these lies are even invented...? Development payments are a mean to bring countries up to scratch. They are allocated with formulas that look at development potential per capita, which is why even struggling areas inside western countries (from Wales to Calabria to Northern Spain to Greece) receive them. It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. The European Community was built on the principle of solidarity, and those payments are one massive expression of such solidarity. Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  > I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. The giveaway was commenting about gratefulness, lies and audiences, when my comment is strictly about policy and imbalance and what i suspect the reason may be within the EU. Somehow you dragged the whole west in a debate about policy that benefits west europe more than east and south europe. The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again, as we did our entire history. The armed conflicts of last century are the economic wars of today, at least within the eu. Talking about “solidarity” and “recipients” is, i am sorry, amusing. I cant entertain this thought path any further simply because this is not a pub and we are not drunks.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again You should read the Treaty of Rome before you try to act all mighty about stuff you clearly don't fully understand. The word solidarity is in the founding principles, and it actually comes even before "peace". The Treaty established the European Social Fund as well as the investment bank. Economic solidarity has always been the key policy to achieve progress in other areas. Most of the money the EU handles today, like yesterday, is used towards enacting that. Everything else, i am sorry, is hot air (and yes, lies).
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      This is a projection. Claiming solidarity is in the “treaties” yet your reaction to east europe wanting change in policy is “leave if you don’t like it”. Such is the eu.
      - toyg 3y ago
        Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. Any country who wants to alter the current setup, will have to renounce this state of things. Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. It has become clear, even in this thread, that certain countries probably never shared the founding principles of the community, and bringing them in as quickly as it was done might have been premature. For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time.
        gumballindie 3y ago
        > Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? That is correct. > Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. > Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. A little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010, I believe, corruption, financial crime, fiscal irresponsibility etc where mentioned. I remember around the time there were frequent calls for PIGS to leave the EU since, unlike east europe, those countries nearly collapsed the project and the euro zone. > For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time. A review of the current state of affairs is in order, but I doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this.
- ChuckNorris89 3y ago
  >I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. Great then, let's talk about the south of Italy and it's development. Everyone from the south of Italy I met in Europe said they'd rather be expats in EU than in the North of Italy thanks to they way the north treat them. That's how Eastern Europeans feel in the EU sometimes. People don't like to be treated as second class citizens. >It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. Kind of like the solidarity of the post-WW2 Marshall plan Italy received after siding with the Nazis? Is it equally disproportionate, more, or less? >Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas. What kind of solidarity are you thinking of receiving? Are the the minimum wage slaves from Eastern Europe working in Italian and German nursing homes and agriculture fields working in conditions below legal norms for wages below the minimum in order to keep the nursing system and cheap supermarket prices afloat, enough to balance the books?
  - toyg 3y ago
    > People don't like to be treated as second class citizens. Don't come to me, an European in Brexit Britain, hailing from a country with one of the largest and most-enduring economic diasporas in the world, to talk about the condition of migrants or second-class "feelings". The stuff you mention is largely bullshit and jokes. There has been no discrimination of Southern Italians since the late '80s, when African migrants became the (easier) target for that sort of treatment. Whereas I'm now on a fucking register and I can lose all my rights with the stroke of a pen by some populist asshole. I swear, EU27 folks don't know how good they have it. > Is it equally disproportionate, more, or less? The Marshall Plan lasted 3 years, Italy got around a billion USD. Over 20 years, Eastern Europe likely got several multiples of that - Poland alone received 11bn per year not long ago, so even adjusting for inflation the Eastern bloc is probably way ahead by now. > What kind of solidarity are you thinking of receiving? Help with migratory flows and refugees resettlement, to balance demographic pressures. Help with stemming tax evasion (I'm looking at you, Slovenia). Help that costs little and would benefit everyone in the long run.

eropple 3y ago

> I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. This doesn't follow at all unless you somehow are able to tell that the poster to whom you reply didn't vote Remain. "Your fellow citizens bought into lies splattered on the side of a bus, shut up" is not the dunk you think it is.

toyg 3y ago

I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. > Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses How do these lies are even invented...? Development payments are a mean to bring countries up to scratch. They are allocated with formulas that look at development potential per capita, which is why even struggling areas inside western countries (from Wales to Calabria to Northern Spain to Greece) receive them. It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. The European Community was built on the principle of solidarity, and those payments are one massive expression of such solidarity. Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas.

gumballindie 3y ago
> I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. The giveaway was commenting about gratefulness, lies and audiences, when my comment is strictly about policy and imbalance and what i suspect the reason may be within the EU. Somehow you dragged the whole west in a debate about policy that benefits west europe more than east and south europe. The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again, as we did our entire history. The armed conflicts of last century are the economic wars of today, at least within the eu. Talking about “solidarity” and “recipients” is, i am sorry, amusing. I cant entertain this thought path any further simply because this is not a pub and we are not drunks.
- toyg 3y ago
  > The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again You should read the Treaty of Rome before you try to act all mighty about stuff you clearly don't fully understand. The word solidarity is in the founding principles, and it actually comes even before "peace". The Treaty established the European Social Fund as well as the investment bank. Economic solidarity has always been the key policy to achieve progress in other areas. Most of the money the EU handles today, like yesterday, is used towards enacting that. Everything else, i am sorry, is hot air (and yes, lies).
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    This is a projection. Claiming solidarity is in the “treaties” yet your reaction to east europe wanting change in policy is “leave if you don’t like it”. Such is the eu.
    - toyg 3y ago
      Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. Any country who wants to alter the current setup, will have to renounce this state of things. Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. It has become clear, even in this thread, that certain countries probably never shared the founding principles of the community, and bringing them in as quickly as it was done might have been premature. For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time.
      - gumballindie 3y ago
        > Let me understand this: the founding treaties of the community were written in my language, by my elected politicians, and signed in my capital city, but you think you know the principles they expose better than me...? That is correct. > Economic solidarity is the lynchpin of the EU; it benefited Italy or Spain before, it's benefiting Eastern Europe now. In theory, but in practice that's not accurate. Modern day EU is far more corrupt and inefficient than when Spain joined. > Surprise surprise, when push comes to shove, nobody wants to - every time funding is threatened, Eastern representatives fall in line. A little bit similar to Italy falling in line around 2010, I believe, corruption, financial crime, fiscal irresponsibility etc where mentioned. I remember around the time there were frequent calls for PIGS to leave the EU since, unlike east europe, those countries nearly collapsed the project and the euro zone. > For that reason, a shrinkage around a more ideologically cohesive core becomes more and more attractive with time. A review of the current state of affairs is in order, but I doubt Italy will have much to say in any of this.
ChuckNorris89 3y ago
>I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. Great then, let's talk about the south of Italy and it's development. Everyone from the south of Italy I met in Europe said they'd rather be expats in EU than in the North of Italy thanks to they way the north treat them. That's how Eastern Europeans feel in the EU sometimes. People don't like to be treated as second class citizens. >It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. Kind of like the solidarity of the post-WW2 Marshall plan Italy received after siding with the Nazis? Is it equally disproportionate, more, or less? >Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas. What kind of solidarity are you thinking of receiving? Are the the minimum wage slaves from Eastern Europe working in Italian and German nursing homes and agriculture fields working in conditions below legal norms for wages below the minimum in order to keep the nursing system and cheap supermarket prices afloat, enough to balance the books?
- toyg 3y ago
  > People don't like to be treated as second class citizens. Don't come to me, an European in Brexit Britain, hailing from a country with one of the largest and most-enduring economic diasporas in the world, to talk about the condition of migrants or second-class "feelings". The stuff you mention is largely bullshit and jokes. There has been no discrimination of Southern Italians since the late '80s, when African migrants became the (easier) target for that sort of treatment. Whereas I'm now on a fucking register and I can lose all my rights with the stroke of a pen by some populist asshole. I swear, EU27 folks don't know how good they have it. > Is it equally disproportionate, more, or less? The Marshall Plan lasted 3 years, Italy got around a billion USD. Over 20 years, Eastern Europe likely got several multiples of that - Poland alone received 11bn per year not long ago, so even adjusting for inflation the Eastern bloc is probably way ahead by now. > What kind of solidarity are you thinking of receiving? Help with migratory flows and refugees resettlement, to balance demographic pressures. Help with stemming tax evasion (I'm looking at you, Slovenia). Help that costs little and would benefit everyone in the long run.