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A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. You don't have brands but have jobs, oft

by toyg 3y ago

A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. You don't have brands but have jobs, often displaced from Western countries. This was always the trade-off for letting Eastern countries in the bloc: they were meant to provide new markets and new labor for (largely German) established companies. In exchange, they got loads of money to raise their infrastructural standards and overall quality of life. If these countries think they're not happy with the arrangement anymore, they're more than welcome to leave. Like what happened with Brexit, they would remove a number of political headaches, hence fostering deeper integration between remaining countries.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
>A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. No. If you go to any supermarket in the east you'll find mostly German or French made products on the food shelves. A lot of the local made products became "illegal" after joining the EU. Now it's better and we have more local products but the trade deficit is still huge. >political headaches Funny how poor eastern countries not wanting to be abused by rich western ones and their corporations and using their legal voting rights in the EU, are considered "political headaches". Ohh, poor rich western companies. How dares the est stand up for themselves and not bend over to their rich overlords? The west should have realized that you can't have a balanced democratic union when some countries are constantly being milked and treated as second class citizens in a theoretically equalitarian union ruled by the rich for the rich.
- toyg 3y ago
  >> >A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. > No. Alright, I must have dreamed all that juicy delocalization that basically makes for a whole branch of academic studies nowadays... > How dares the est stand up for themselves Nobody denies anything to anyone, but western audiences are a bit tired of the lack of grace and gratefulness exhibited by areas that continue (and intend to continue) to be massive recipients of Union funds. > when some countries are constantly being milked Except nobody is being "milked" - every country in the Union experiences tradeoffs. France, Italy, and Spain benefit from financial stability but suffer from job losses; Germany benefits from economic growth while subsidizing the rest of the continent; and Eastern countries benefit from subsidies and job creation while struggling to build national champions. It's a give-and-take for everyone, which is why this continuous self-victimization exhibited by certain audiences is incredibly tiresome.
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses you mentioned that it created and for the trade tariffs they no longer charge when importing them sweet, subsidised, german cars.
    - eropple 3y ago
      > I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. This doesn't follow at all unless you somehow are able to tell that the poster to whom you reply didn't vote Remain. "Your fellow citizens bought into lies splattered on the side of a bus, shut up" is not the dunk you think it is.
    - toyg 3y ago
      I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. > Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses How do these lies are even invented...? Development payments are a mean to bring countries up to scratch. They are allocated with formulas that look at development potential per capita, which is why even struggling areas inside western countries (from Wales to Calabria to Northern Spain to Greece) receive them. It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. The European Community was built on the principle of solidarity, and those payments are one massive expression of such solidarity. Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas.
      - gumballindie 3y ago
        > I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. The giveaway was commenting about gratefulness, lies and audiences, when my comment is strictly about policy and imbalance and what i suspect the reason may be within the EU. Somehow you dragged the whole west in a debate about policy that benefits west europe more than east and south europe. The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again, as we did our entire history. The armed conflicts of last century are the economic wars of today, at least within the eu. Talking about “solidarity” and “recipients” is, i am sorry, amusing. I cant entertain this thought path any further simply because this is not a pub and we are not drunks.
gumballindie 3y ago
A rather unsophisticated opinion.
- toyg 3y ago
  Followed by an even less sophisticated one.
- snapcaster 3y ago
  i don't know much about Europe, would you mind adding some sophistication to above comment?
  - gumballindie 3y ago
    It has been proven that west european products made by west european companies sold in east europe are of low quality and sometimes even more expensive: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-europe/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-... Claims east europeans “displaced jobs” from west europe yet east europeans have been forced to migrate to western europe due to a lack of jobs. How have jobs been moved to east europe when people leave precisely because there are no jobs? They also claim that east europe was meant to provide “cheap labour” for richer nations in the eu - basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor so they can work in factories. Somehow they should be thankful for that. The list continues and is a good indication of the underlying issues that plague european “solidarity”. What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape where if you dont like it you are told to get out.
    - toyg 3y ago
      Nobody was forced to do anything; migration started almost immediately after 1989-90, simply because the eastern economic and social landscape was depleted after the failures of the '80s. Delocalization took a bit longer simply because it required institutional stability, which some countries achieved faster than others. Volkswagen were already making parts in Chzechia in the mid-90s, do you think they were making twice the parts they needed...? > basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor That's not what delocalization does; in the long run it inevitably leads to wage growth in target countries - it happened even in China. The "plan", or rather intuition of some political players of the time, was simply to exploit lower salaries as long as it was possible, knowing full well that it wouldn't be forever. > What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape. As I said, nobody is forced to stay in. If those countries stay in, it's because they know which side their bread is buttered.
ChuckNorris89 3y ago
>A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. Please name me 3 foodstuffs you have in your kitchen made in some Eastern EU country. >You don't have brands but have jobs, often displaced from Western countries. Goods made in Eastern EU didn't displace jobs from the West. French and German unemployment were record lows. Southern EU had big unemployment but that was due to their own economic issues, no factories from Greece or Spain moved to Eastern Europe. >they were meant to provide new markets and new labor for (largely German) established companies. In exchange, they got loads of money to raise their infrastructural standards and overall quality of life. In exchange they also had to suffer a huge increase in cost of living, food and energy prices to the point we're paying German prices at Eastern EU wages. Most of our energy companies are German or French owned, so the profits from the increase prices we paid went to them. So are our banks. The profits made by western banks also far outpace the ones made in their home countries since they offer higher interest rates and charge higher fees than what they do back home to their own countrymen. So are our oil and gas companies, all owned by western enterprises and profits go there. Yeah, we're getting hundreds of millions from the EU and sending back billions in corporate profits. Heck of a deal. From some angles it looks more like economic colonialism.
- toyg 3y ago
  > Please name me 3 foodstuffs you have in your kitchen made in some Eastern EU country. How is it my fault that your stuff tastes bad? ;) > no factories from Greece or Spain moved to Eastern Europe. That's because they largely didn't exist in the first place; whereas they definitely did from Italy, which you carefully avoided mentioning, or the UK. > In exchange they also had to suffer a huge increase in cost of living, food and energy prices That's just capitalism in action, and it's the same for pretty much anyone on the continent at the moment. (oh, actually, it's worse here in UK, with sustained double-digit inflation, eye-watering energy prices that nobody else pays in Europe, and a house market used as reserve currency by rich foreigners).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

by toyg 3y ago

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

>A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. No. If you go to any supermarket in the east you'll find mostly German or French made products on the food shelves. A lot of the local made products became "illegal" after joining the EU. Now it's better and we have more local products but the trade deficit is still huge. >political headaches Funny how poor eastern countries not wanting to be abused by rich western ones and their corporations and using their legal voting rights in the EU, are considered "political headaches". Ohh, poor rich western companies. How dares the est stand up for themselves and not bend over to their rich overlords? The west should have realized that you can't have a balanced democratic union when some countries are constantly being milked and treated as second class citizens in a theoretically equalitarian union ruled by the rich for the rich.

toyg 3y ago
>> >A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. > No. Alright, I must have dreamed all that juicy delocalization that basically makes for a whole branch of academic studies nowadays... > How dares the est stand up for themselves Nobody denies anything to anyone, but western audiences are a bit tired of the lack of grace and gratefulness exhibited by areas that continue (and intend to continue) to be massive recipients of Union funds. > when some countries are constantly being milked Except nobody is being "milked" - every country in the Union experiences tradeoffs. France, Italy, and Spain benefit from financial stability but suffer from job losses; Germany benefits from economic growth while subsidizing the rest of the continent; and Eastern countries benefit from subsidies and job creation while struggling to build national champions. It's a give-and-take for everyone, which is why this continuous self-victimization exhibited by certain audiences is incredibly tiresome.
- gumballindie 3y ago
  I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses you mentioned that it created and for the trade tariffs they no longer charge when importing them sweet, subsidised, german cars.
  - eropple 3y ago
    > I find it incredibly amusing when someone from a country that left the eu because of the burocratic burden and unfair policies complains about people complaining about similar issues. Whats even more amusing is when said country is on a fast track to becoming irrelevant. This doesn't follow at all unless you somehow are able to tell that the poster to whom you reply didn't vote Remain. "Your fellow citizens bought into lies splattered on the side of a bus, shut up" is not the dunk you think it is.
  - toyg 3y ago
    I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. > Pretty sure the eu is making them payments as a means to compensate for the job losses How do these lies are even invented...? Development payments are a mean to bring countries up to scratch. They are allocated with formulas that look at development potential per capita, which is why even struggling areas inside western countries (from Wales to Calabria to Northern Spain to Greece) receive them. It just so happens that Eastern countries receive disproportionate amounts because of the state they found themselves in after the end of the Soviet Bloc. The European Community was built on the principle of solidarity, and those payments are one massive expression of such solidarity. Sadly, the largest recipients seem to avoid expressing any solidarity back in other areas.
    - gumballindie 3y ago
      > I'm Italian and living in UK (for my sins), so I think I can see more than one facet of the argument. The giveaway was commenting about gratefulness, lies and audiences, when my comment is strictly about policy and imbalance and what i suspect the reason may be within the EU. Somehow you dragged the whole west in a debate about policy that benefits west europe more than east and south europe. The european community wasn't built out of solidarity, it was built as a mechanism to ensure we don't resort to barbarism again, as we did our entire history. The armed conflicts of last century are the economic wars of today, at least within the eu. Talking about “solidarity” and “recipients” is, i am sorry, amusing. I cant entertain this thought path any further simply because this is not a pub and we are not drunks.

gumballindie 3y ago

A rather unsophisticated opinion.

toyg 3y ago
Followed by an even less sophisticated one.
snapcaster 3y ago
i don't know much about Europe, would you mind adding some sophistication to above comment?
- gumballindie 3y ago
  It has been proven that west european products made by west european companies sold in east europe are of low quality and sometimes even more expensive: https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-europe/ https://www.investigate-europe.eu/en/2021/dual-quality-food-... Claims east europeans “displaced jobs” from west europe yet east europeans have been forced to migrate to western europe due to a lack of jobs. How have jobs been moved to east europe when people leave precisely because there are no jobs? They also claim that east europe was meant to provide “cheap labour” for richer nations in the eu - basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor so they can work in factories. Somehow they should be thankful for that. The list continues and is a good indication of the underlying issues that plague european “solidarity”. What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape where if you dont like it you are told to get out.
  - toyg 3y ago
    Nobody was forced to do anything; migration started almost immediately after 1989-90, simply because the eastern economic and social landscape was depleted after the failures of the '80s. Delocalization took a bit longer simply because it required institutional stability, which some countries achieved faster than others. Volkswagen were already making parts in Chzechia in the mid-90s, do you think they were making twice the parts they needed...? > basically admitting the plan has always been to keep those people poor That's not what delocalization does; in the long run it inevitably leads to wage growth in target countries - it happened even in China. The "plan", or rather intuition of some political players of the time, was simply to exploit lower salaries as long as it was possible, knowing full well that it wouldn't be forever. > What was initially sold as a continuation of the marshal plan has taken a very dark european shape. As I said, nobody is forced to stay in. If those countries stay in, it's because they know which side their bread is buttered.

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

>A lot of those "western European" products are actually manufactured in Eastern Europe by cheap Eastern European labor. Please name me 3 foodstuffs you have in your kitchen made in some Eastern EU country. >You don't have brands but have jobs, often displaced from Western countries. Goods made in Eastern EU didn't displace jobs from the West. French and German unemployment were record lows. Southern EU had big unemployment but that was due to their own economic issues, no factories from Greece or Spain moved to Eastern Europe. >they were meant to provide new markets and new labor for (largely German) established companies. In exchange, they got loads of money to raise their infrastructural standards and overall quality of life. In exchange they also had to suffer a huge increase in cost of living, food and energy prices to the point we're paying German prices at Eastern EU wages. Most of our energy companies are German or French owned, so the profits from the increase prices we paid went to them. So are our banks. The profits made by western banks also far outpace the ones made in their home countries since they offer higher interest rates and charge higher fees than what they do back home to their own countrymen. So are our oil and gas companies, all owned by western enterprises and profits go there. Yeah, we're getting hundreds of millions from the EU and sending back billions in corporate profits. Heck of a deal. From some angles it looks more like economic colonialism.

toyg 3y ago
> Please name me 3 foodstuffs you have in your kitchen made in some Eastern EU country. How is it my fault that your stuff tastes bad? ;) > no factories from Greece or Spain moved to Eastern Europe. That's because they largely didn't exist in the first place; whereas they definitely did from Italy, which you carefully avoided mentioning, or the UK. > In exchange they also had to suffer a huge increase in cost of living, food and energy prices That's just capitalism in action, and it's the same for pretty much anyone on the continent at the moment. (oh, actually, it's worse here in UK, with sustained double-digit inflation, eye-watering energy prices that nobody else pays in Europe, and a house market used as reserve currency by rich foreigners).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]