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> which was worse than Lightning in every way? You mean the proprietary connector that Apple would rather have die than turn into a free standard? Which it had

by josefx 3y ago

> which was worse than Lightning in every way? You mean the proprietary connector that Apple would rather have die than turn into a free standard? Which it had over a decade to accomplish between the EU announcing its intention to enforce a standard and actually writing the law. > What happens when a company wants to come up with a better charging method then USB C? There is a renewal period of five years for the connection standard of choice. Why does this question get repeated every time USB comes up?

ChuckNorris89 3y ago
Yeah it's funny how many HNers come out of the woodworks to defend their favorite corporation's inferior proprietary charging standard that hasn't seen mass adoption beyond one single company and even that moved away from it on some of its higher end products. This is why we can't have nice things.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  What higher end products did Apple move away from it on? Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). Apple dropped lightning from iPads but I think that has less to do with moving away and more that iPad volume is relatively small, MFI is not as important in its product segment, it requires high charging rates that lightning probably can’t support, iPad/Mac convergence is a thing and they want to make the charging story between those two compelling (eg connecting your iPhone to your iPad to charge). I seriously doubt Apple dropped iPad because it wants to move away from lightning. Also, Apple has easily shipped many billions of units with lightning connectors and dominates the profit margin of selling a smart phone. I think that qualifies as “mass adoption” regardless and they very intentionally control the lightning standard. I’m sure there’s many competitors who would haven chosen it over usbc before it became so ubiquitous if they could.
  - reaperducer 3y ago
    Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). More than "technically." Lots of devices had FireWire connections. In addition to my PowerBook, my Comcast cable box, my external archive drives from multiple brands, and my Sony camera had FireWire connectors. Many high-end televisions had them, too. The notion that FireWire was an Apple-only thing is little more than a HN cliche.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      I had both a Sony desktop and a high end Dell in 2011 that had FireWire
    - the_why_of_y 3y ago
      FireWire (aka IEEE-1394) was an open standard but implementors were charged substantial per-unit patent royalties by MPEG-LA. This likely a major reason why it lost out to the royalty-free USB, despite technical advantages.
      - scarface74 3y ago
        $1 per port was not “substantial”, https://www.cnet.com/culture/apple-licensing-firewire-for-a-fee/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/apple-licensing-firewire-for-a-...
        foobiekr 3y ago
        $1 cogs per port is indeed substantial.
        scarface74 3y ago
        And this is why people who care enough to afford higher end products shouldn’t be burden by commodity product vendors like PC makers and Android manufacturers. FireWire was better. Apple and high end PCs had them. If Apple created a better connector than USB C that cost more to include, it would never be accepted by Android manufacturers who want to sell shitty $60 phones.
scarface74 3y ago
You do know that Apple was a major contributor to the USB C standard? Would other companies really use Lightning even if it were a standard? Did PC manufacturers embrace FireWire even though it was better? Sony did and Dell did on their high end computers.
- josefx 3y ago
  > Did PC manufacturers embrace FireWire even though it was better? For a time they seemed to, I had FireWire ports even on computers at the lower end of the price range. What I didn't have where FireWire based gadgets and going by Wikipedia that isn't surprising. FireWire style peer networking seems to force a lot of complexity onto peripherals, with every device being equal. USB on the other hand pushed most of the complexity to the host, making peripherals cheap and easy to implement. Given that I am not surprised that USB pushed firewire out, especially when after it came out that most FireWire implementations had significant security flaws.
- Rediscover 3y ago
  FireWire on ThinkPads, too... Even one of my low-end TPs (but still a real one, my R61i) has IEEE-1394 (ie, FireWire).
dingledork69 3y ago
Because apple stans want to make it clear they drank the koolaid. They wasted so much money it's very important for them to feel like it was the right choice.

by josefx 3y ago

ChuckNorris89 3y ago

Yeah it's funny how many HNers come out of the woodworks to defend their favorite corporation's inferior proprietary charging standard that hasn't seen mass adoption beyond one single company and even that moved away from it on some of its higher end products. This is why we can't have nice things.

vlovich123 3y ago
What higher end products did Apple move away from it on? Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). Apple dropped lightning from iPads but I think that has less to do with moving away and more that iPad volume is relatively small, MFI is not as important in its product segment, it requires high charging rates that lightning probably can’t support, iPad/Mac convergence is a thing and they want to make the charging story between those two compelling (eg connecting your iPhone to your iPad to charge). I seriously doubt Apple dropped iPad because it wants to move away from lightning. Also, Apple has easily shipped many billions of units with lightning connectors and dominates the profit margin of selling a smart phone. I think that qualifies as “mass adoption” regardless and they very intentionally control the lightning standard. I’m sure there’s many competitors who would haven chosen it over usbc before it became so ubiquitous if they could.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  Macs never had proprietary connectors again to my knowledge once they dropped FireWire (which technically was an open standard iirc). More than "technically." Lots of devices had FireWire connections. In addition to my PowerBook, my Comcast cable box, my external archive drives from multiple brands, and my Sony camera had FireWire connectors. Many high-end televisions had them, too. The notion that FireWire was an Apple-only thing is little more than a HN cliche.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    I had both a Sony desktop and a high end Dell in 2011 that had FireWire
  - the_why_of_y 3y ago
    FireWire (aka IEEE-1394) was an open standard but implementors were charged substantial per-unit patent royalties by MPEG-LA. This likely a major reason why it lost out to the royalty-free USB, despite technical advantages.
    - scarface74 3y ago
      $1 per port was not “substantial”, https://www.cnet.com/culture/apple-licensing-firewire-for-a-fee/ https://www.cnet.com/culture/apple-licensing-firewire-for-a-...
      - foobiekr 3y ago
        $1 cogs per port is indeed substantial.
        scarface74 3y ago
        And this is why people who care enough to afford higher end products shouldn’t be burden by commodity product vendors like PC makers and Android manufacturers. FireWire was better. Apple and high end PCs had them. If Apple created a better connector than USB C that cost more to include, it would never be accepted by Android manufacturers who want to sell shitty $60 phones.

scarface74 3y ago

You do know that Apple was a major contributor to the USB C standard? Would other companies really use Lightning even if it were a standard? Did PC manufacturers embrace FireWire even though it was better? Sony did and Dell did on their high end computers.

josefx 3y ago
> Did PC manufacturers embrace FireWire even though it was better? For a time they seemed to, I had FireWire ports even on computers at the lower end of the price range. What I didn't have where FireWire based gadgets and going by Wikipedia that isn't surprising. FireWire style peer networking seems to force a lot of complexity onto peripherals, with every device being equal. USB on the other hand pushed most of the complexity to the host, making peripherals cheap and easy to implement. Given that I am not surprised that USB pushed firewire out, especially when after it came out that most FireWire implementations had significant security flaws.
Rediscover 3y ago
FireWire on ThinkPads, too... Even one of my low-end TPs (but still a real one, my R61i) has IEEE-1394 (ie, FireWire).

dingledork69 3y ago

Because apple stans want to make it clear they drank the koolaid. They wasted so much money it's very important for them to feel like it was the right choice.