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It's like like being issued a state mandated always online tracker and then police would say verbally that they promise not to abuse that data. And before peop

by Yizahi 3y ago

It's like like being issued a state mandated always online tracker and then police would say verbally that they promise not to abuse that data. And before people would nitpick my comment, metadata is surveillance. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equals.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equa...

arp242 3y ago
I bet HN keeps server logs; would you say you're being surveilled by viewing this page and posting that comment? If not, why not? What's the difference between that metadata and any other?
- voltaireodactyl 3y ago
  Of course they’re being surveilled on Hacker News. Keeping a finger on the pulse here is the epitome of low hanging fruit for law enforcement and intelligence. Why would anyone suspect otherwise?
- SanderNL 3y ago
  I'm not claiming the relation is causal. I don't know what happens between happy world -> happy world with constant surveillance -> dystopian hellscape. The same is true for HN logs. I'd say, yes those logs are a form of surveillance. If that matters is where the debate is. It's hard to say, because these things are slippery and take (a long) time.
- Yizahi 3y ago
  Surveillance is a deliberate action. If some incidental metadata is temporarily stored at HN and then evicted and deleted permanently in reasonable timeframes then it is not a surveillance. But as soon as it's analyzed, and/or specifically stored for prolonged periods, and/or unnecessary metadata is collected (not required for basic tech support and server administration), and/or linked to the user profiles more than needed to save and display our posts - then it's surveillance. If I passed by your house and saw you walking your dog at 10:34 18/05/2023 and then promptly forgot about it, it is not a surveillance. If I set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go - it's a surveillance. Even if I pinky promise that it is my own internal information and I would not share it, sell it, exchange it etc.
  - arp242 3y ago
    > set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go But I don't really see how that is happening here? I agree that would be bad, but merely checking "a user visited my website" is a very thing than seeing what someone does all over the interwebz. It's very questionable this minimum of information can even be tracked to you when done right.

by Yizahi 3y ago

arp242 3y ago

I bet HN keeps server logs; would you say you're being surveilled by viewing this page and posting that comment? If not, why not? What's the difference between that metadata and any other?

voltaireodactyl 3y ago
Of course they’re being surveilled on Hacker News. Keeping a finger on the pulse here is the epitome of low hanging fruit for law enforcement and intelligence. Why would anyone suspect otherwise?
SanderNL 3y ago
I'm not claiming the relation is causal. I don't know what happens between happy world -> happy world with constant surveillance -> dystopian hellscape. The same is true for HN logs. I'd say, yes those logs are a form of surveillance. If that matters is where the debate is. It's hard to say, because these things are slippery and take (a long) time.
Yizahi 3y ago
Surveillance is a deliberate action. If some incidental metadata is temporarily stored at HN and then evicted and deleted permanently in reasonable timeframes then it is not a surveillance. But as soon as it's analyzed, and/or specifically stored for prolonged periods, and/or unnecessary metadata is collected (not required for basic tech support and server administration), and/or linked to the user profiles more than needed to save and display our posts - then it's surveillance. If I passed by your house and saw you walking your dog at 10:34 18/05/2023 and then promptly forgot about it, it is not a surveillance. If I set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go - it's a surveillance. Even if I pinky promise that it is my own internal information and I would not share it, sell it, exchange it etc.
- arp242 3y ago
  > set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go But I don't really see how that is happening here? I agree that would be bad, but merely checking "a user visited my website" is a very thing than seeing what someone does all over the interwebz. It's very questionable this minimum of information can even be tracked to you when done right.