5 ms·

> it also hurts How is simple analytics or A/B testing that's NOT internet-wide tracking (that is, only for the website you're on) or sold (which would be outr

by arp242 3y ago

> it also hurts How is simple analytics or A/B testing that's NOT internet-wide tracking (that is, only for the website you're on) or sold (which would be outright illegal without explicit consent) hurting you? Genuine question, because I don't see it. Internet-wide tracking across many sites: sure. But that's a very different thing – it's the difference between "I'm home Darling, I saw Sander at the mall today" vs. "Hello everyone, here is everything Sander did this week".

andirk 3y ago
The data is that of "I have a person who likes monkey paws" and then they can sell that to the monkey paw conglomerate. Next thing you know you're getting monkey paws in the mail!
- arp242 3y ago
  The entire premise of my question is that data is kept private between the two parties (the website owner and the visitor). I don't see how this connects with that at all. And how do you even get someone's mail address without an extensive internet-wide profile (which, again, isn't what the premise of my question was in the first place)?
  - chazhaz 3y ago
    It’s one thing to say that you’ll keep the data private between you, but from the user’s perspective there’s no guarantee. Whether that’s because you change your mind and decide to sell the user’s data, or there’s some sorta data breach, or or or.
Yizahi 3y ago
It's like like being issued a state mandated always online tracker and then police would say verbally that they promise not to abuse that data. And before people would nitpick my comment, metadata is surveillance. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equals.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equa...
- arp242 3y ago
  I bet HN keeps server logs; would you say you're being surveilled by viewing this page and posting that comment? If not, why not? What's the difference between that metadata and any other?
  - voltaireodactyl 3y ago
    Of course they’re being surveilled on Hacker News. Keeping a finger on the pulse here is the epitome of low hanging fruit for law enforcement and intelligence. Why would anyone suspect otherwise?
  - SanderNL 3y ago
    I'm not claiming the relation is causal. I don't know what happens between happy world -> happy world with constant surveillance -> dystopian hellscape. The same is true for HN logs. I'd say, yes those logs are a form of surveillance. If that matters is where the debate is. It's hard to say, because these things are slippery and take (a long) time.
  - Yizahi 3y ago
    Surveillance is a deliberate action. If some incidental metadata is temporarily stored at HN and then evicted and deleted permanently in reasonable timeframes then it is not a surveillance. But as soon as it's analyzed, and/or specifically stored for prolonged periods, and/or unnecessary metadata is collected (not required for basic tech support and server administration), and/or linked to the user profiles more than needed to save and display our posts - then it's surveillance. If I passed by your house and saw you walking your dog at 10:34 18/05/2023 and then promptly forgot about it, it is not a surveillance. If I set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go - it's a surveillance. Even if I pinky promise that it is my own internal information and I would not share it, sell it, exchange it etc.
    - arp242 3y ago
      > set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go But I don't really see how that is happening here? I agree that would be bad, but merely checking "a user visited my website" is a very thing than seeing what someone does all over the interwebz. It's very questionable this minimum of information can even be tracked to you when done right.
SanderNL 3y ago
I get the feeling. But to make things very simple, it's again like law enforcement tracking everything you say and do. Let's say it's a single agency, with a single employee doing the tracking to keep it easy. How is that hurting you? How is your every movement being tracked by a single agency such an issue? They said they would keep it private, pinky promise.
- mediascreen 3y ago
  Law enforcement tracking everyone can have serious and unintended consequences in away that a SaaS tracking visits are unlikely to have. An extreme case is on the other side, is to compare simple site limited tracking to a coffee shop being able to see who enters the door. Why should they track how I look and the way I'm dressed? Does it make service harder if you have to work blindfolded? Though luck, my privacy is more important than your wish to provide your customers with good service.
  - novok 3y ago
    On it's face it is harder for baristas to be blindfolded. It would literally be a worse coffee shop at blindfolded baristas than normal coffee.
    - mediascreen 3y ago
      Yes, but that's my point. A large number of companies uses analytics data to provide better service and products without any sinister motives.
  - SanderNL 3y ago
    “Unlikely” being the keyword here. I know it’s unlikely, but just the act of collecting all this data makes it dangerous. IMO the benefits are small compared to the longterm risks so I lean towards, don’t track, just deliver “good coffee”. No need for hyperoptimalization of the coffee experience. In your example they are only looking. It would be different if they were recording their observations in a structured manner (aka cameras). Even writing it down by hand would raise flags, would it not? Sure, being a human means looking at me and my coffee to brew it, but recording everything I do in (semi)permanent storage? Is that human? Is that necessary to brew coffee?

by arp242 3y ago

andirk 3y ago

The data is that of "I have a person who likes monkey paws" and then they can sell that to the monkey paw conglomerate. Next thing you know you're getting monkey paws in the mail!

arp242 3y ago
The entire premise of my question is that data is kept private between the two parties (the website owner and the visitor). I don't see how this connects with that at all. And how do you even get someone's mail address without an extensive internet-wide profile (which, again, isn't what the premise of my question was in the first place)?
- chazhaz 3y ago
  It’s one thing to say that you’ll keep the data private between you, but from the user’s perspective there’s no guarantee. Whether that’s because you change your mind and decide to sell the user’s data, or there’s some sorta data breach, or or or.

Yizahi 3y ago

It's like like being issued a state mandated always online tracker and then police would say verbally that they promise not to abuse that data. And before people would nitpick my comment, metadata is surveillance. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equals.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/09/metadata_equa...

arp242 3y ago
I bet HN keeps server logs; would you say you're being surveilled by viewing this page and posting that comment? If not, why not? What's the difference between that metadata and any other?
- voltaireodactyl 3y ago
  Of course they’re being surveilled on Hacker News. Keeping a finger on the pulse here is the epitome of low hanging fruit for law enforcement and intelligence. Why would anyone suspect otherwise?
- SanderNL 3y ago
  I'm not claiming the relation is causal. I don't know what happens between happy world -> happy world with constant surveillance -> dystopian hellscape. The same is true for HN logs. I'd say, yes those logs are a form of surveillance. If that matters is where the debate is. It's hard to say, because these things are slippery and take (a long) time.
- Yizahi 3y ago
  Surveillance is a deliberate action. If some incidental metadata is temporarily stored at HN and then evicted and deleted permanently in reasonable timeframes then it is not a surveillance. But as soon as it's analyzed, and/or specifically stored for prolonged periods, and/or unnecessary metadata is collected (not required for basic tech support and server administration), and/or linked to the user profiles more than needed to save and display our posts - then it's surveillance. If I passed by your house and saw you walking your dog at 10:34 18/05/2023 and then promptly forgot about it, it is not a surveillance. If I set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go - it's a surveillance. Even if I pinky promise that it is my own internal information and I would not share it, sell it, exchange it etc.
  - arp242 3y ago
    > set up a permanent observation post across the road from your door and will tail you daily everywhere you go But I don't really see how that is happening here? I agree that would be bad, but merely checking "a user visited my website" is a very thing than seeing what someone does all over the interwebz. It's very questionable this minimum of information can even be tracked to you when done right.

SanderNL 3y ago

I get the feeling. But to make things very simple, it's again like law enforcement tracking everything you say and do. Let's say it's a single agency, with a single employee doing the tracking to keep it easy. How is that hurting you? How is your every movement being tracked by a single agency such an issue? They said they would keep it private, pinky promise.

mediascreen 3y ago
Law enforcement tracking everyone can have serious and unintended consequences in away that a SaaS tracking visits are unlikely to have. An extreme case is on the other side, is to compare simple site limited tracking to a coffee shop being able to see who enters the door. Why should they track how I look and the way I'm dressed? Does it make service harder if you have to work blindfolded? Though luck, my privacy is more important than your wish to provide your customers with good service.
- novok 3y ago
  On it's face it is harder for baristas to be blindfolded. It would literally be a worse coffee shop at blindfolded baristas than normal coffee.
  - mediascreen 3y ago
    Yes, but that's my point. A large number of companies uses analytics data to provide better service and products without any sinister motives.
- SanderNL 3y ago
  “Unlikely” being the keyword here. I know it’s unlikely, but just the act of collecting all this data makes it dangerous. IMO the benefits are small compared to the longterm risks so I lean towards, don’t track, just deliver “good coffee”. No need for hyperoptimalization of the coffee experience. In your example they are only looking. It would be different if they were recording their observations in a structured manner (aka cameras). Even writing it down by hand would raise flags, would it not? Sure, being a human means looking at me and my coffee to brew it, but recording everything I do in (semi)permanent storage? Is that human? Is that necessary to brew coffee?