3 ms·

Not sure what you're on about. The linked page specifically references another page which mentions DEI by name: https://identity.cs.duke.edu/ https://identity.c

by chjj 3y ago

Not sure what you're on about. The linked page specifically references another page which mentions DEI by name: https://identity.cs.duke.edu/ https://identity.cs.duke.edu/ "Both computing departments and tech organizations have long struggled with issues related to diversity, equity, and inclusion." It looks to me like you're using ethics as the motte.

cxr 3y ago
DEI concerns comprise a subset of ethics, not the other way around. This isn't hard.
josephg 3y ago
> It looks to me like you're using ethics as the motte My goal in talking about ethics isn’t to protect DEI. It’s to have it be subsumed by something which I believe is bigger, broader, more mature and more relevant to engineering work. The study of ethical theory is all of those things. Concretely, as engineers I think we need to be thinking and talking a lot more about the harm caused to society by security breaches, dark patterns, social media addiction in teens, loneliness and depression amongst the video game community, dystopian pervasive workplace tracking and monitoring, online gambling and I’m sure other problems. This stuff causes real harm. But what do people campaign for instead? Oh, renaming git’s “master” branch to “main” and changing “blacklist” to “deny list”. And adding trigger warnings all over the place, despite increasing evidence showing it does more harm than good to victims of trauma. If DEI is important, let’s give people the language and skills to engage in ethical arguments, as people have been doing for thousands of years. An honest, informed debate makes us all smarter. The modern finger wagging moralising that happens with DEI stuff is an embarrassment. Someone who really understands a topic should be able to argue convincingly for or against their own position. The whole point of the academy is to teach these skills.

by chjj 3y ago

cxr 3y ago

DEI concerns comprise a subset of ethics, not the other way around. This isn't hard.

josephg 3y ago

> It looks to me like you're using ethics as the motte My goal in talking about ethics isn’t to protect DEI. It’s to have it be subsumed by something which I believe is bigger, broader, more mature and more relevant to engineering work. The study of ethical theory is all of those things. Concretely, as engineers I think we need to be thinking and talking a lot more about the harm caused to society by security breaches, dark patterns, social media addiction in teens, loneliness and depression amongst the video game community, dystopian pervasive workplace tracking and monitoring, online gambling and I’m sure other problems. This stuff causes real harm. But what do people campaign for instead? Oh, renaming git’s “master” branch to “main” and changing “blacklist” to “deny list”. And adding trigger warnings all over the place, despite increasing evidence showing it does more harm than good to victims of trauma. If DEI is important, let’s give people the language and skills to engage in ethical arguments, as people have been doing for thousands of years. An honest, informed debate makes us all smarter. The modern finger wagging moralising that happens with DEI stuff is an embarrassment. Someone who really understands a topic should be able to argue convincingly for or against their own position. The whole point of the academy is to teach these skills.