5 ms·

>I just use less energy, by an order of magnitude or so, in the winter - and I bundle up out here. Unfortunately this is about as far as "degrowth" gets: "what

by scythe 3y ago

>I just use less energy, by an order of magnitude or so, in the winter - and I bundle up out here. Unfortunately this is about as far as "degrowth" gets: "what if we were just cold?" Or worse, hot? How do we enforce this, anyway? Rationing? Taxes on energy? Have you seen what happens to politicians when gas prices go up? People complain about fast fashion — should we have a tax on clothes? People moan about airplanes — do we want it to be harder to travel? >we've ended up in a debt-based economy If you want to be taken seriously, step one is not adopting Ron Paul's economics rhetoric. >because that lower energy future (or, at least, more limits on energy, growth, etc) is coming down the tunnel at a good clip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_photovoltaics >Is the economy made for man, or man for the economy? "The economy" is a description of what people are doing. Do we do things for ourselves, or do we do them for the doing — is this the right question? Is it even a meaningful question?

Syonyk 3y ago
Well, I'm a bit limited on thermal mass out here in my office - and quite honestly, I'd have built things somewhat differently were I to do it again. I didn't know nearly what I did now, seven years ago when I built it. I'd focus quite a bit more on thermal mass in the structure instead of just insulation, and would probably put in some containers for holding a good bit of liquid for thermal storage. But I also wouldn't say I'm "cold" out here in the winter, because I dress for the conditions. I'm entirely comfortable out of the wind at 45-50F until the place heats up a bit from my limited energy use and my thermal output (a human is around 100W thermal at rest). Insulating and heating people directly takes a lot less energy than heating entire structures, and radiant heat does a good job of this as well - we should be doing more radiant heat panels in offices in the winter and keep the air a good bit cooler, IMO. As for debt and interest, I've no idea what of Ron Paul's stuff you think I follow. A debt based economy either grows or defaults, those are pretty much the options as demonstrated by history. It doesn't work well in a degrowth environment, which is a problem that has to be solved (or it will be solved by default). The economy is a description of what people are doing, but the spirit of the question was, "Are we doing things that align with what we know makes humans happy, healthy, and prosperous, or are we being {driven, influenced, manipulated} to do that which is the most profitable to various well funded corporate entities?" I'll argue we're doing the second, and I could point to a range of areas. But, to keep it short, are people staring at social media feeds endlessly because they want to, or because well paid people have made it their career to find ways to exploit the human brain to keep us doing it, because it's profitable to their companies? I'd argue it's very much the second, and that's an example of "man bending to the whims of the economy," in my (admittedly short) phrase.
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  > "Are we doing things that align with what we know makes humans happy, healthy, and prosperous, or are we being {driven, influenced, manipulated} to do that which is the most profitable to various well funded corporate entities?" I'll argue we're doing the second It seems like people on both the left and the right (as well as the middle) are coming to this conclusion. There's widespread agreement about the diagnosis, but a huge amount of disagreement about the treatment. > are people staring at social media feeds endlessly because they want to, or because well paid people have made it their career to find ways to exploit the human brain to keep us doing it, because it's profitable to their companies? I'd argue it's very much the second, and that's an example of "man bending to the whims of the economy," in my (admittedly short) phrase. Exactly. The billionaire calling himself "a free speech absolutist" just wants to be able to do the manipulating more directly (as well as his competitors in that space).
- bombcar 3y ago
  I’m pretty well versed in debt and it’s evolutions and convolutions but it is hard for me to avoid feeling it is somewhat unnatural, like eating the apple before the tree is planted; the cow before it is born.
UncleOxidant 3y ago
> If you want to be taken seriously, step one is not adopting Ron Paul's economics rhetoric. I don't think Ron Paul is the only one who would call our economy "debt-based". Look at interest rates: when they go up people complain because they can't afford to borrow to buy a house or car - the economy tends to head into recession. That seems to indicate that debt is an important part of the economy.

by scythe 3y ago

Syonyk 3y ago

Well, I'm a bit limited on thermal mass out here in my office - and quite honestly, I'd have built things somewhat differently were I to do it again. I didn't know nearly what I did now, seven years ago when I built it. I'd focus quite a bit more on thermal mass in the structure instead of just insulation, and would probably put in some containers for holding a good bit of liquid for thermal storage. But I also wouldn't say I'm "cold" out here in the winter, because I dress for the conditions. I'm entirely comfortable out of the wind at 45-50F until the place heats up a bit from my limited energy use and my thermal output (a human is around 100W thermal at rest). Insulating and heating people directly takes a lot less energy than heating entire structures, and radiant heat does a good job of this as well - we should be doing more radiant heat panels in offices in the winter and keep the air a good bit cooler, IMO. As for debt and interest, I've no idea what of Ron Paul's stuff you think I follow. A debt based economy either grows or defaults, those are pretty much the options as demonstrated by history. It doesn't work well in a degrowth environment, which is a problem that has to be solved (or it will be solved by default). The economy is a description of what people are doing, but the spirit of the question was, "Are we doing things that align with what we know makes humans happy, healthy, and prosperous, or are we being {driven, influenced, manipulated} to do that which is the most profitable to various well funded corporate entities?" I'll argue we're doing the second, and I could point to a range of areas. But, to keep it short, are people staring at social media feeds endlessly because they want to, or because well paid people have made it their career to find ways to exploit the human brain to keep us doing it, because it's profitable to their companies? I'd argue it's very much the second, and that's an example of "man bending to the whims of the economy," in my (admittedly short) phrase.

UncleOxidant 3y ago
> "Are we doing things that align with what we know makes humans happy, healthy, and prosperous, or are we being {driven, influenced, manipulated} to do that which is the most profitable to various well funded corporate entities?" I'll argue we're doing the second It seems like people on both the left and the right (as well as the middle) are coming to this conclusion. There's widespread agreement about the diagnosis, but a huge amount of disagreement about the treatment. > are people staring at social media feeds endlessly because they want to, or because well paid people have made it their career to find ways to exploit the human brain to keep us doing it, because it's profitable to their companies? I'd argue it's very much the second, and that's an example of "man bending to the whims of the economy," in my (admittedly short) phrase. Exactly. The billionaire calling himself "a free speech absolutist" just wants to be able to do the manipulating more directly (as well as his competitors in that space).
bombcar 3y ago
I’m pretty well versed in debt and it’s evolutions and convolutions but it is hard for me to avoid feeling it is somewhat unnatural, like eating the apple before the tree is planted; the cow before it is born.

UncleOxidant 3y ago

> If you want to be taken seriously, step one is not adopting Ron Paul's economics rhetoric. I don't think Ron Paul is the only one who would call our economy "debt-based". Look at interest rates: when they go up people complain because they can't afford to borrow to buy a house or car - the economy tends to head into recession. That seems to indicate that debt is an important part of the economy.