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Increase the easy widespread availability of cheap fresh locally-grown fruits and vegetables. Build as many vertical farms as are needed to always have drone-de

Increase the easy widespread availability of cheap fresh locally-grown fruits and vegetables. Build as many vertical farms as are needed to always have drone-delivery of fresh produce. Build it at such a scale that anyone can order as much as they want to eat from their smartphone and receive a drone delivered basket containing automatically picked fresh produce from the vertical farm systems nearby.

Jtsummers 3y ago
> Increase the easy widespread availability of cheap fresh locally-grown fruits and vegetables. Yes, fresh produce is what's needed to address increased deaths from: transportation, homicide, suicide (ok, maybe an impact in general health on this one which does impact mental health), poisoning. I can imagine the billboards, "Thinking of using drugs? Try a freshly picked apple instead!".
- fatfingerd 3y ago
  Probably the green space that would be created by doing the same project by removing streets to plant orchards would be pretty effective at removing inputs to those deaths. Green spaces that are only available to a few and don't displace streets I'd be less confident in.
  - theossuary 3y ago
    In that case the solution isn't more orchards, it's less cars.
    - fatfingerd 3y ago
      More green space less street capacity, harvest would at best be a proxy for calculating/retaining a coverage requirement. Less cars on the same streets are speed deaths, replacement with traditional buildings are depression related deaths. I think continuous public green roof parks/paths or something would be more practical than actual harvestable plants.
- ThorsBane 3y ago
  Yes.
bioemerl 3y ago
> Build as many vertical farms as are needed In this case I'd argue that number is zero. Regular farms are altogether superior and vertical farms would increase food prices, reducing availability in the end.
- ThorsBane 3y ago
  Yes but then you have shipping constraints that results in refrigeration and pesticide practices which destroy the underlying nutrient content and flavor of the produce. Whereas with local vertical farms, you have Byzantine machinery that employs a lot of people and produces maximally-nutritious and flavorful produce that is always in season because it's grown locally and drone-deliverable via smartphone request. You could order a basket of fresh fruits and vegetables and have it get shipped to your backyard or window by drone.
  - bioemerl 3y ago
    All of these constraints cost far less than the cost of bringing enough light and the materials required to build a vertical farm. The techno futurism of stuff like vertical farms is one that sounds great on paper, but fails hard due to practical limitations in the real world. Regular farms, even with required translation and other infrastructure, are both cheaper and more sustainable, barring the sun turning off.
    - ThorsBane 3y ago
      You are wrong because without vertical farming humanity will not be able to scale to hundreds of billions of souls as easily. And vertical farming will be necessary on Moon and Mars and Venus and Europa and Pluto and beyond. And we have unlimited space and raw materials with which to assemble vertical farms in space.
      - bioemerl 3y ago
        We have many bigger issues than farm space that we need to solve before vertical farming makes sense, if this is your reasoning. Human population is already declining with no external factors like famine pushing us to do so. We aren't going to have significant populations on any planet that isn't earth for decades. I don't disagree with you that vertical farms may become useful some day in the long future, although maybe I'd argue we will move to fully artificial factory food before that happens.
walleeee 3y ago
I see no foreseeable future in which it makes any sense to erect massive, power-hungry concrete towers, pump huge volumes of water up into them, build fleets of drones to carry small quantities of vegetables back down to us on-demand, and drive it all with an absurd amount of software and hardware, much of it requiring rare earth materials. Maybe if we had nearly free/infinite energy it would be possible. It still wouldn't be smart. Vertical farming may make sense in a small number of cases, likely where existing buildings can be renovated and repurposed. Localized, sustainable horizontal agriculture is way more energy-efficient, cost-effective, and ecologically sound in most cases.
- ThorsBane 3y ago
  It is known that vertical farms are very cost efficient, or can be. They can outproduce traditional farms in terms of yield given inputs. If that can be increased further, they should be built as open source technologies as much as possible so humanity always remembers how to rebuild pipelines for optimal nutrition and the lowest cost. You also have year round fresh produce that isn't treated with pesticides or refrigerated, so its taste and nutrition profile are intact. Vertical farms with drone delivery are locally maintainable pipelines for giving humans optimal nutrition at the lowest possible cost and the lowest current possible shipping friction.

Jtsummers 3y ago

> Increase the easy widespread availability of cheap fresh locally-grown fruits and vegetables. Yes, fresh produce is what's needed to address increased deaths from: transportation, homicide, suicide (ok, maybe an impact in general health on this one which does impact mental health), poisoning. I can imagine the billboards, "Thinking of using drugs? Try a freshly picked apple instead!".

fatfingerd 3y ago
Probably the green space that would be created by doing the same project by removing streets to plant orchards would be pretty effective at removing inputs to those deaths. Green spaces that are only available to a few and don't displace streets I'd be less confident in.
- theossuary 3y ago
  In that case the solution isn't more orchards, it's less cars.
  - fatfingerd 3y ago
    More green space less street capacity, harvest would at best be a proxy for calculating/retaining a coverage requirement. Less cars on the same streets are speed deaths, replacement with traditional buildings are depression related deaths. I think continuous public green roof parks/paths or something would be more practical than actual harvestable plants.
ThorsBane 3y ago
Yes.

bioemerl 3y ago

> Build as many vertical farms as are needed In this case I'd argue that number is zero. Regular farms are altogether superior and vertical farms would increase food prices, reducing availability in the end.

ThorsBane 3y ago
Yes but then you have shipping constraints that results in refrigeration and pesticide practices which destroy the underlying nutrient content and flavor of the produce. Whereas with local vertical farms, you have Byzantine machinery that employs a lot of people and produces maximally-nutritious and flavorful produce that is always in season because it's grown locally and drone-deliverable via smartphone request. You could order a basket of fresh fruits and vegetables and have it get shipped to your backyard or window by drone.
- bioemerl 3y ago
  All of these constraints cost far less than the cost of bringing enough light and the materials required to build a vertical farm. The techno futurism of stuff like vertical farms is one that sounds great on paper, but fails hard due to practical limitations in the real world. Regular farms, even with required translation and other infrastructure, are both cheaper and more sustainable, barring the sun turning off.
  - ThorsBane 3y ago
    You are wrong because without vertical farming humanity will not be able to scale to hundreds of billions of souls as easily. And vertical farming will be necessary on Moon and Mars and Venus and Europa and Pluto and beyond. And we have unlimited space and raw materials with which to assemble vertical farms in space.
    - bioemerl 3y ago
      We have many bigger issues than farm space that we need to solve before vertical farming makes sense, if this is your reasoning. Human population is already declining with no external factors like famine pushing us to do so. We aren't going to have significant populations on any planet that isn't earth for decades. I don't disagree with you that vertical farms may become useful some day in the long future, although maybe I'd argue we will move to fully artificial factory food before that happens.

walleeee 3y ago

I see no foreseeable future in which it makes any sense to erect massive, power-hungry concrete towers, pump huge volumes of water up into them, build fleets of drones to carry small quantities of vegetables back down to us on-demand, and drive it all with an absurd amount of software and hardware, much of it requiring rare earth materials. Maybe if we had nearly free/infinite energy it would be possible. It still wouldn't be smart. Vertical farming may make sense in a small number of cases, likely where existing buildings can be renovated and repurposed. Localized, sustainable horizontal agriculture is way more energy-efficient, cost-effective, and ecologically sound in most cases.

ThorsBane 3y ago
It is known that vertical farms are very cost efficient, or can be. They can outproduce traditional farms in terms of yield given inputs. If that can be increased further, they should be built as open source technologies as much as possible so humanity always remembers how to rebuild pipelines for optimal nutrition and the lowest cost. You also have year round fresh produce that isn't treated with pesticides or refrigerated, so its taste and nutrition profile are intact. Vertical farms with drone delivery are locally maintainable pipelines for giving humans optimal nutrition at the lowest possible cost and the lowest current possible shipping friction.