5 ms·

Perhaps, but they could have broken it down, assaulted them, then claimed that they were violent. They get away with that kind of crap all the time, because mos

by midjji 3y ago

Perhaps, but they could have broken it down, assaulted them, then claimed that they were violent. They get away with that kind of crap all the time, because mostly, they do this to criminals, and are friends with the local police. Sometimes they get caught, usually for things like shooting a dog that was chained and far out of reach, or because someone had it on video, but these thugs are the kind of people who got rejected from or fired from the police, so however incompetent, cowardly, and violent the cops are, these thugs are worse.

OkayPhysicist 3y ago
>> but they could have broken it down In the US, that would be an exceedingly bad idea on the part of the Pinkertons. They don't have the same protections law enforcement has: they are treated legally the same as anybody else, which means that in 38 US states they'd be justifying the homeowners use of deadly force.
- hinkley 3y ago
  I’m shocked the Pinkertons still exist. None of the bigger unions tried to pull strings to get them destroyed for past atrocities against the labor movement?
  - djbusby 3y ago
    Unions are big, but Corporate Money is bigger.
  - dontlaugh 3y ago
    Unions sadly have little power, especially in the US. That may be starting to change, though.
  - midjji 3y ago
    They dont really, they are just an offbrand for securitas who bought up the trademark and brand after they went under.
- midjji 3y ago
  Yes, and had they continued to insist, showed their guns, and refused to leave he would have gotten away with getting a weapon and shooting them. But most homeowners are both unwilling and unable to take down a couple of armed thugs, assuming he even had a weapon at home that wasnt a fantasy sword replica. Had he escalated and then drawn a weapon, odds are they would have shot him and may well have gotten away with it, claiming they were just asking questions and he immediately drew a weapon and tried to shoot them. Remember that when some rednecks hunted down and killed a kid a while back for running while black(Ahmaud Arbery) the police initially wanted to drop the prosecution, and its quite possible that without the national attention of the Floyed case, and the murderers being dumb enough videotape themseles, they may well have gotten away with it. The simple fact that it was a discussion of if they would get convicted at all is just as telling. And police will generally back security companies more than rednecks in court.
  - jones6ofMont 3y ago
    [dead]
WillPostForFood 3y ago
They get away with that kind of crap all the time That's a big claim, can you cite an example or two of Pinkerton kicking down doors an assaulting the residents?
- hinkley 3y ago
  If you want to go back to the Labor movement, the Pinkertons practically committed war crimes. When people say the police evolved from a misanthropic idea of keeping the peace, they are specifically thinking of the Pinkertons as an example. Hired thugs meant to keep those in power in power, not to protect the citizenry.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    If you want to go back to the Labor movement... I do not. I would like an example from within the last, say, 75 years. Regardless, you didn't even cite an example.
    - hinkley 3y ago
      I don’t know if the Pinkertons directly, but their competitors have caused a lot of problems during our eternal war in the Middle East. That’s a problem of using a private police force like an army, and while the US government and military paid the bills and made requests, the triggermen bear their share of the blame. You’re trying to make an extraordinary claims play to deflect this part of the conversation and I’m not biting. If you don’t know the sordid history of private armies go do your own research. Don’t imply other people are wrong because they aren’t spoon feeding you facts that people who employ tactics like you won’t hear even if offered in earnest. As many people I’m the civil rights and LGBT community are now saying, it’s not my job to educate you for free.
      - mikestew 3y ago
        I don’t know if the Pinkertons directly... Then you probably should not have responded to a question specifically asking for an example of Pinkerton kicking down doors. As you've clearly stated that you can't answer the question, but rather prefer to go off on some vaguely related tangent, then I will go on about my day.
oliwarner 3y ago
> then claimed that they were violent If you're assaulted at somebody's house but you overpower them, you don't get to loot them. This isn't D&D.
- midjji 3y ago
  Its called fait accompli. If I go to someone who stole my bike, beat them and take the bike back, yeah I do get to keep the loot, even if they prosecute me, which is unlikely, and even if they succeed in prosecuting me which is also unlikely, I still get to keep the loot. Its not the way the legal system or the law is supposed to apply, but in reality the idea or intent of law is irrelevant, its its practical application that matters. It is why I explicitly say they get away with it because they mostly do it to criminals. No one in their sane mind think the law is intended to allow the threats they made etc, or that they had the rights to do what they did, but they did it anyways, and as the story shows, they got away with it. Think about that again, they did this to some rich white geek with a platform and they got away with it. What do you think they would get away with against a known criminal...
  - oliwarner 3y ago
    Yikes. No, several times. Fait accompli is not a legal defence, it's a description of something that is now irreversible. And taking things entirely reversible. This is not the same as taking back stolen property from a thief. If you want to stretch analogies, it's like beating up the kid that bought your stolen [still disputed] bike from a bike shop. The kid here didn't do anything wrong. If the goods were stolen, there might be an argument for a civil process to get them back to their owner, but if you commit a crime in the act of repatriating stolen goods, you could lose you right to them. In this case they "got away with it" because this kid didn't know his rights, fell for the threats and let them taken the goods. It's nasty but a hundred million miles away from the felony B&E, assault and theft being described as acceptable a few posts up.

by midjji 3y ago

OkayPhysicist 3y ago

>> but they could have broken it down In the US, that would be an exceedingly bad idea on the part of the Pinkertons. They don't have the same protections law enforcement has: they are treated legally the same as anybody else, which means that in 38 US states they'd be justifying the homeowners use of deadly force.

hinkley 3y ago
I’m shocked the Pinkertons still exist. None of the bigger unions tried to pull strings to get them destroyed for past atrocities against the labor movement?
- djbusby 3y ago
  Unions are big, but Corporate Money is bigger.
- dontlaugh 3y ago
  Unions sadly have little power, especially in the US. That may be starting to change, though.
- midjji 3y ago
  They dont really, they are just an offbrand for securitas who bought up the trademark and brand after they went under.
midjji 3y ago
Yes, and had they continued to insist, showed their guns, and refused to leave he would have gotten away with getting a weapon and shooting them. But most homeowners are both unwilling and unable to take down a couple of armed thugs, assuming he even had a weapon at home that wasnt a fantasy sword replica. Had he escalated and then drawn a weapon, odds are they would have shot him and may well have gotten away with it, claiming they were just asking questions and he immediately drew a weapon and tried to shoot them. Remember that when some rednecks hunted down and killed a kid a while back for running while black(Ahmaud Arbery) the police initially wanted to drop the prosecution, and its quite possible that without the national attention of the Floyed case, and the murderers being dumb enough videotape themseles, they may well have gotten away with it. The simple fact that it was a discussion of if they would get convicted at all is just as telling. And police will generally back security companies more than rednecks in court.
- jones6ofMont 3y ago
  [dead]

WillPostForFood 3y ago

They get away with that kind of crap all the time That's a big claim, can you cite an example or two of Pinkerton kicking down doors an assaulting the residents?

hinkley 3y ago
If you want to go back to the Labor movement, the Pinkertons practically committed war crimes. When people say the police evolved from a misanthropic idea of keeping the peace, they are specifically thinking of the Pinkertons as an example. Hired thugs meant to keep those in power in power, not to protect the citizenry.
- mikestew 3y ago
  If you want to go back to the Labor movement... I do not. I would like an example from within the last, say, 75 years. Regardless, you didn't even cite an example.
  - hinkley 3y ago
    I don’t know if the Pinkertons directly, but their competitors have caused a lot of problems during our eternal war in the Middle East. That’s a problem of using a private police force like an army, and while the US government and military paid the bills and made requests, the triggermen bear their share of the blame. You’re trying to make an extraordinary claims play to deflect this part of the conversation and I’m not biting. If you don’t know the sordid history of private armies go do your own research. Don’t imply other people are wrong because they aren’t spoon feeding you facts that people who employ tactics like you won’t hear even if offered in earnest. As many people I’m the civil rights and LGBT community are now saying, it’s not my job to educate you for free.
    - mikestew 3y ago
      I don’t know if the Pinkertons directly... Then you probably should not have responded to a question specifically asking for an example of Pinkerton kicking down doors. As you've clearly stated that you can't answer the question, but rather prefer to go off on some vaguely related tangent, then I will go on about my day.

oliwarner 3y ago

> then claimed that they were violent If you're assaulted at somebody's house but you overpower them, you don't get to loot them. This isn't D&D.

midjji 3y ago
Its called fait accompli. If I go to someone who stole my bike, beat them and take the bike back, yeah I do get to keep the loot, even if they prosecute me, which is unlikely, and even if they succeed in prosecuting me which is also unlikely, I still get to keep the loot. Its not the way the legal system or the law is supposed to apply, but in reality the idea or intent of law is irrelevant, its its practical application that matters. It is why I explicitly say they get away with it because they mostly do it to criminals. No one in their sane mind think the law is intended to allow the threats they made etc, or that they had the rights to do what they did, but they did it anyways, and as the story shows, they got away with it. Think about that again, they did this to some rich white geek with a platform and they got away with it. What do you think they would get away with against a known criminal...
- oliwarner 3y ago
  Yikes. No, several times. Fait accompli is not a legal defence, it's a description of something that is now irreversible. And taking things entirely reversible. This is not the same as taking back stolen property from a thief. If you want to stretch analogies, it's like beating up the kid that bought your stolen [still disputed] bike from a bike shop. The kid here didn't do anything wrong. If the goods were stolen, there might be an argument for a civil process to get them back to their owner, but if you commit a crime in the act of repatriating stolen goods, you could lose you right to them. In this case they "got away with it" because this kid didn't know his rights, fell for the threats and let them taken the goods. It's nasty but a hundred million miles away from the felony B&E, assault and theft being described as acceptable a few posts up.