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I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression suc

by kypro 3y ago

I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. There have been few days in my adult life that I wouldn't have preferred to not be here. Depression sucks. Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. I hear that some people feel their depression shouldn't be there and that they should feel happy, and in those cases I think this sounds like it could be an excellent solution, but in my case (and I think others too) I could give you very well reasoned arguments for why I would prefer to not to be here and why I feel a sense of sadness as my default state. At least in my case I believe arguments for optimism are more wrong than my depression. Interestingly, my girlfriend is the total opposite to me. She's the happiest person ever met and I often wonder why she isn't also considered to be suffering from some kind of mental defect – I guess in her case the signals must be moving the "right" way because obviously the "right" way to feel is happy 24/7 and prolonged sadness is "wrong". I guess I always kinda liked the idea that any advanced intelligence would end up as some iteration of Marvin the Paranoid Android, since the logical conclusion should perhaps be that life is pointless and hard, so therefore why bother? Perhaps the "right" way for signals to travel is in the direction of depression and hopelessness. Sorry I know this isn't really on topic and I sound like a complete downer. I'm certainly not trying to diminish this research. I've guess I've just always found it interesting how some people feel they can categorise mental states as "right" or "wrong".

airstrike 3y ago
I have full sympathy for people dealing with depression but I don't think this logic holds. People who are depressed have suicidal ideations, suffer in quality of life and generally struggle to accomplish otherwise simple tasks. It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. I think you are attributing to the word "right" a sense of an obligation to feel happy, with "wrong" therefore being a deviation from that True Path, but I don't think that is the intended meaning when people use those words to describe depression. I would argue that "right" in this context means something closer to "nominal", as in "working as intended". Nobody is faulting you (or me or others) for constantly feeling down. I hope that helps.
- kypro 3y ago
  I'm not sure I agree with your use of "nominal", but if you're saying right means something like "typical" then I'm fine with that. I guess I'm not sure what "working as intended" or "nominally" would mean. If the "intention" of my emotions is to approximate my true state then they're doing that just fine. Why would they tell me the world is great when I don't believe that to be true? > It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. Obviously I can only speak for myself but depression has manifested both as hyper-productivity and hyper-defeatism for me. I've never felt content so a lot of my life has been an endless struggle to just feel okay which made me unbelievably productive when I was younger and naive enough to think I could fix things. It can be negative at times though, but my perspective on this that optimising for my own happiness is not an achievable goal. All I can do is optimise so that my suffering can be a net-positive for humanity and those I love. So although I might feel like I don't want to go on and I don't want to be productive I do because if I'm not productive or kill myself then I'm letting everyone down and my existence then truly was a net-negative both subjectively and objectively. I have to at least make this objectively positive. So the reason optimising for other people's happiness is everything to me, is because my own means nothing. But that does get destructive when I'm letting people down because then I suddenly start trying to calculate if my life is a net positive to the world and things can go "bad" quick when convince myself I'm doing more harm than good. I think I'm atypical to be fair, but I would argue my depression isn't objectively negative at all which is exactly why I put up with it.
  - throwuwu 3y ago
    Not OP but I view happiness as nominal because I get more done when I’m happy, I find it easier to take small failures in stride, I resonate more with other people and I just get more satisfaction out of life. If I’m feeling down then pretty much the opposite is true. I don’t really feel like my emotions are representation if my mental state since they are a part of it as well as an influence on the more rational side. They also don’t correspond perfectly to the outside world, I can be cheerful even when things are objectively bad which lets me celebrate the small good things I can find in those situations. I can also feel terrible when things are going great sometimes but maybe that’s because I really should be doing something different.
digging 3y ago
I believe I have some insight as someone who only recently made a breakthrough with lifelong on-and-off depression, and as someone who has had tons of therapeutic conversation (paid and otherwise). Once I finally realized that depression was something happening to me, literally an illness, and that it wasn't an intrinsic part of my personality, I sought medication. That medication had a near-immediate effect of making me feel ok. I wasn't depressed, I was able to just get through a day without thinknig too much about it. But it didn't work perfectly, and I found I could still slip into depression a couple times a year. More recently I got on a new medication that seems to actually work. It's not giving me a fake happiness and it's not taking away any of my very real concerns about how "good" life is. I am not optimistic about my state, my country, the future of humanity, or very much in general. But I am not depressed. I find it easy to enjoy things that I love in life. I can take real pleasure in disconnecting from work and foraging blackberries in the woods. It is pointless to do so (I have plenty of food), but it doesn't feel pointless. It feels fun and interesting. To me that's the biggest difference with depression. I can be extremely sad, and I often am. I can even believe that the world would be better off without me (I go back and forth), but I still feel satisfied to be alive. Even on my bad days, I can take small pleasures. I do think that staying depressed is "wrong" insofar as I would say it is "right" to seek comfort, pleasure, and health. I also think that it's fair to say these signals are moving in the "wrong" direction with respect to the direction that they move in non-depressed people. If the goal is not to be depressed, and something is causing depression, it's a "wrong" action. But I don't want this to sound like I'm chastising you. I get it. I am still a pretty pessimistic person and everything you're saying is logical. The difference is, I can think about and believe those things without it changing how I feel on a fundamental level. It is extremely hard to see that without getting treatment. And I also understand that it sucks to be told you're "wrong" or there's something "wrong" with you for being depressed, because it's happened to me plenty. So I understand your qualms with the language. Again, though - you don't have to feel bad. You can think the world sucks (my state government wants me and my community eradicated) and still feel good.
- stuckkeys 3y ago
  what medication did you use? I am on the waiting list for controlled shrooms. Also you are not alone. Depression runs in my family (mother side) it is a rollercoaster. I have found drone flying FPV to be relaxing. But yeah, hang in there. The world is a better place with you, do not give up.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
goda90 3y ago
>since the logical conclusion should perhaps be that life is pointless and hard Even if one concludes that life is pointless, depression is not the logical direction to head. Depression makes it harder, and full of pointless suffering. The logical direction to head would be maximizing pleasure despite the pointlessness. Of course that opens a whole can of worms about hedonism, but the point is that depression isn't logical unless you conclude that life should be as miserable as possible, which I wouldn't say is a logical thing to conclude.
MadcapJake 3y ago
You are entering Buddhism and philosophy territory with this take. At one point after the depression, you should arrive at "why should I feel bad that there's no purpose when I am a master of—and one with—the universe and can create and/or observe any meaning that I want?" Don't stop at nihilism, take the next step towards absurdism!
wyldfire 3y ago
> Interestingly, my girlfriend is the total opposite to me. She's the happiest person ever met and I often wonder why she isn't also considered to be suffering from some kind of mental defect – I guess in her case the signals must be moving the "right" way because obviously the "right" way to feel is happy 24/7 and prolonged sadness is "wrong". I think the metric that mental health professionals use is roughly "interfering with your life." So if she were frustrating her colleagues and friends with her upbeat attitude -- if they saw it as insincere, e.g. and they decided to limit interaction with her -- that might be considered "wrong" or "treatable." If she herself saw the negative impact of her happiness, she could likely be treated by a professional. > I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. IMO that metric helps make things much more objective such that "wrong" can be considered instead "problematic."
igravious 3y ago
> Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. Ah, I get the point you're making, but that's not what the article said/meant, is it? “When they analyzed fMRI data across the whole brain, one connection stood out. In the normal brain, the anterior insula, a region that integrates bodily sensations, sends signals to a region that governs emotions, the anterior cingulate cortex. “You could think of it as the anterior cingulate cortex receiving this information about the body — like heart rate or temperature — and then deciding how to feel on the basis of all these signals,” Mitra said. In three-quarters of the participants with depression, however, the typical flow of activity was reversed: The anterior cingulate cortex sent signals to the anterior insula. The more severe the depression, the higher the proportion of signals that traveled the wrong way.” Wrong here means reversed from the norm. As in, it's not logical to argue that the mood should precede the telemetry, is it? The flow of information going the other way makes little sense from a bio-mechanistic viewpoint. That's why it's "wrong". The article makes no other judgement about (major) depression. And arguably, as we all know, it is correct to have reactive depression if some awful thing befalls us.

by kypro 3y ago

airstrike 3y ago

I have full sympathy for people dealing with depression but I don't think this logic holds. People who are depressed have suicidal ideations, suffer in quality of life and generally struggle to accomplish otherwise simple tasks. It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. I think you are attributing to the word "right" a sense of an obligation to feel happy, with "wrong" therefore being a deviation from that True Path, but I don't think that is the intended meaning when people use those words to describe depression. I would argue that "right" in this context means something closer to "nominal", as in "working as intended". Nobody is faulting you (or me or others) for constantly feeling down. I hope that helps.

kypro 3y ago
I'm not sure I agree with your use of "nominal", but if you're saying right means something like "typical" then I'm fine with that. I guess I'm not sure what "working as intended" or "nominally" would mean. If the "intention" of my emotions is to approximate my true state then they're doing that just fine. Why would they tell me the world is great when I don't believe that to be true? > It is "wrong" in the sense that it has all of these objectively negative consequences whereas being blissfully happy does not, so it can be claimed to be "right" in relative terms. Obviously I can only speak for myself but depression has manifested both as hyper-productivity and hyper-defeatism for me. I've never felt content so a lot of my life has been an endless struggle to just feel okay which made me unbelievably productive when I was younger and naive enough to think I could fix things. It can be negative at times though, but my perspective on this that optimising for my own happiness is not an achievable goal. All I can do is optimise so that my suffering can be a net-positive for humanity and those I love. So although I might feel like I don't want to go on and I don't want to be productive I do because if I'm not productive or kill myself then I'm letting everyone down and my existence then truly was a net-negative both subjectively and objectively. I have to at least make this objectively positive. So the reason optimising for other people's happiness is everything to me, is because my own means nothing. But that does get destructive when I'm letting people down because then I suddenly start trying to calculate if my life is a net positive to the world and things can go "bad" quick when convince myself I'm doing more harm than good. I think I'm atypical to be fair, but I would argue my depression isn't objectively negative at all which is exactly why I put up with it.
- throwuwu 3y ago
  Not OP but I view happiness as nominal because I get more done when I’m happy, I find it easier to take small failures in stride, I resonate more with other people and I just get more satisfaction out of life. If I’m feeling down then pretty much the opposite is true. I don’t really feel like my emotions are representation if my mental state since they are a part of it as well as an influence on the more rational side. They also don’t correspond perfectly to the outside world, I can be cheerful even when things are objectively bad which lets me celebrate the small good things I can find in those situations. I can also feel terrible when things are going great sometimes but maybe that’s because I really should be doing something different.

digging 3y ago

I believe I have some insight as someone who only recently made a breakthrough with lifelong on-and-off depression, and as someone who has had tons of therapeutic conversation (paid and otherwise). Once I finally realized that depression was something happening to me, literally an illness, and that it wasn't an intrinsic part of my personality, I sought medication. That medication had a near-immediate effect of making me feel ok. I wasn't depressed, I was able to just get through a day without thinknig too much about it. But it didn't work perfectly, and I found I could still slip into depression a couple times a year. More recently I got on a new medication that seems to actually work. It's not giving me a fake happiness and it's not taking away any of my very real concerns about how "good" life is. I am not optimistic about my state, my country, the future of humanity, or very much in general. But I am not depressed. I find it easy to enjoy things that I love in life. I can take real pleasure in disconnecting from work and foraging blackberries in the woods. It is pointless to do so (I have plenty of food), but it doesn't feel pointless. It feels fun and interesting. To me that's the biggest difference with depression. I can be extremely sad, and I often am. I can even believe that the world would be better off without me (I go back and forth), but I still feel satisfied to be alive. Even on my bad days, I can take small pleasures. I do think that staying depressed is "wrong" insofar as I would say it is "right" to seek comfort, pleasure, and health. I also think that it's fair to say these signals are moving in the "wrong" direction with respect to the direction that they move in non-depressed people. If the goal is not to be depressed, and something is causing depression, it's a "wrong" action. But I don't want this to sound like I'm chastising you. I get it. I am still a pretty pessimistic person and everything you're saying is logical. The difference is, I can think about and believe those things without it changing how I feel on a fundamental level. It is extremely hard to see that without getting treatment. And I also understand that it sucks to be told you're "wrong" or there's something "wrong" with you for being depressed, because it's happened to me plenty. So I understand your qualms with the language. Again, though - you don't have to feel bad. You can think the world sucks (my state government wants me and my community eradicated) and still feel good.

stuckkeys 3y ago
what medication did you use? I am on the waiting list for controlled shrooms. Also you are not alone. Depression runs in my family (mother side) it is a rollercoaster. I have found drone flying FPV to be relaxing. But yeah, hang in there. The world is a better place with you, do not give up.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

goda90 3y ago

>since the logical conclusion should perhaps be that life is pointless and hard Even if one concludes that life is pointless, depression is not the logical direction to head. Depression makes it harder, and full of pointless suffering. The logical direction to head would be maximizing pleasure despite the pointlessness. Of course that opens a whole can of worms about hedonism, but the point is that depression isn't logical unless you conclude that life should be as miserable as possible, which I wouldn't say is a logical thing to conclude.

MadcapJake 3y ago

You are entering Buddhism and philosophy territory with this take. At one point after the depression, you should arrive at "why should I feel bad that there's no purpose when I am a master of—and one with—the universe and can create and/or observe any meaning that I want?" Don't stop at nihilism, take the next step towards absurdism!

wyldfire 3y ago

> Interestingly, my girlfriend is the total opposite to me. She's the happiest person ever met and I often wonder why she isn't also considered to be suffering from some kind of mental defect – I guess in her case the signals must be moving the "right" way because obviously the "right" way to feel is happy 24/7 and prolonged sadness is "wrong". I think the metric that mental health professionals use is roughly "interfering with your life." So if she were frustrating her colleagues and friends with her upbeat attitude -- if they saw it as insincere, e.g. and they decided to limit interaction with her -- that might be considered "wrong" or "treatable." If she herself saw the negative impact of her happiness, she could likely be treated by a professional. > I hate this idea that signals can move the "wrong" way. IMO that metric helps make things much more objective such that "wrong" can be considered instead "problematic."

igravious 3y ago

> Yet, I don't think people are right when they tell me I'm wrong to be depressed. Ah, I get the point you're making, but that's not what the article said/meant, is it? “When they analyzed fMRI data across the whole brain, one connection stood out. In the normal brain, the anterior insula, a region that integrates bodily sensations, sends signals to a region that governs emotions, the anterior cingulate cortex. “You could think of it as the anterior cingulate cortex receiving this information about the body — like heart rate or temperature — and then deciding how to feel on the basis of all these signals,” Mitra said. In three-quarters of the participants with depression, however, the typical flow of activity was reversed: The anterior cingulate cortex sent signals to the anterior insula. The more severe the depression, the higher the proportion of signals that traveled the wrong way.” Wrong here means reversed from the norm. As in, it's not logical to argue that the mood should precede the telemetry, is it? The flow of information going the other way makes little sense from a bio-mechanistic viewpoint. That's why it's "wrong". The article makes no other judgement about (major) depression. And arguably, as we all know, it is correct to have reactive depression if some awful thing befalls us.