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Huh. I didn't realize the Pinkerton's were still a thing. Its interesting to see an example of how they operate nowadays when they aren't able to roll in armed

Huh. I didn't realize the Pinkerton's were still a thing. Its interesting to see an example of how they operate nowadays when they aren't able to roll in armed and ready like the good ol' days. That being said, I suppose them threatening to call in the police does that for them.

carlmr 3y ago
There was no evidence of wrongdoing on his part. Even if they had evidence that he stole something, a private militia shouldn't be called to enforce this, but a police investigation. Somebody at WotC should be held liable for this. Are there no laws in America against this?
- colpabar 3y ago
  [flagged]
- phpisthebest 3y ago
  Yes, but it requires people to know their legal rights, and engage with them Had the police been called most likely the police would have said "this is a civil matter" not done nothing, at most taken a report for a detective to investigate the alleged theft. Also had the homeowner just said "leave my property", and then the police called, the private militia would then be trespassing and the police would remove them. Here however the homeowner basically consented to the actions, the search, and the seizure while under threat of additional legal action they still consented. Know your rights.
  - mindslight 3y ago
    That is a good description of what is, but not what ought to be. It's very easy to discuss this after the fact, detached from the situation with a calm head, and be confident that this victim would have been legally in the clear. But rational analysis is sorely absent when an armed gang shows up at your door demanding something and threatening more violence if you don't comply. The legal dynamic in the US has basically evolved to justify shakedown behavior, where it's technically possible to "stand up" for your rights if you know the exact song and dance at the right time, but practically most people don't and can't. Whereas what really needs to happen is for various aggressor parties to be legally restrained from using coercion to begin with. And that's not even touching the dynamic where various types of aggressors end up shooting first despite being in the wrong, cry "self defense", and then successfully avoid getting charged with second degree murder.
    - phpisthebest 3y ago
      >>But rational analysis is sorely absent when an armed gang shows up at your door demanding something and threatening more violence if you don't comply. That is why my standing policy is to never answer the door unless I am expecting someone. Even for package delivery I have a table for them to leave the package on. >>Whereas what really needs to happen is for various aggressor parties to be legally restrained from using coercion to begin with. Examples of laws where this happens would be great. >>And that's not even touching the dynamic where various types of aggressors end up shooting first despite being in the wrong, cry "self defense", and then successfully avoid getting charged with second degree murder. Examples please.
      - mindslight 3y ago
        > That is why my standing policy is to never answer the door unless Sure. "Standing policy" implies that you've spent a bunch of time thinking it out, presumably thinking about the corner cases (police are there and they aren't leaving), and also concluding that you're willing to forgo answering the door in times it would have been beneficial. That's all work and preparation that you're taking for granted, that frankly most people don't have time for. It would be akin to me railing against people for using GMail, as I run my own mail server. The world is too big to micromanage everything. If physical security is one of your hobbies that is fantastic. But it's wrong to assert that it's universal. > Examples of laws where this happens would be great. The point is that we're sorely lacking those laws, or at least enforcement of them. This particular situation should result in charges of armed robbery, but I doubt it will. But even my saying that is wrong, as it buys into this high stakes paradigm. Rather, how about a simple misdemeanor law that prohibits the bringing firearms onto someone else's residential real estate, unless a sign is posted that explicitly allowed it? > Examples please I feel bad for coming back to this example so often, but I don't stay up on the latest unjustified murder of the week and its details are beyond reproach - Breonna Taylor. That was perpetrated by "police" rather than corporate thugs, but it's exactly the dynamic of someone acting exactly as the legal system implies they should to preserve their rights, ending up with their girlfriend being murdered, and still no justice being served.
- Reubachi 3y ago
  why would this necessitate a police investigation? Even greater waste of time, now affecting the taxpayer. Guy bought item, company sent item. That's it. Company can ask for it back citing an internal misrelease, or not. Guy can ignore, or not. No breach, theft at all. Quite Literally a non story I feel silly even commenting about. Why did OP share this a month later? Not HN material.
pmoriarty 3y ago
Yes, the Pinkertons are still a thing. There was an interesting post about them here: [1] Some choice quotes from that thread: They became famous when Lincoln used them as spies during the Civil War. They became infamous when American industrialists started employing them as union/labor strikebreakers & private police forces who weren’t held accountable by the US government. For some of their most egregious examples of strike-breaking, check out their part in Carnegie’s Homestead Mill Strike & how they turned a peaceful assembly of strikers into Chicago’s Haymarket Riot. From the US Library of Congress What began as a detective agency in Chicago grew into a national private police force. *The Pinkertons stood against organized labor at nearly every turn* from Haymarket to Homestead and famously took down the Molly Maguires, while instilling fear in the hearts of fugitives across the country. ... Ironically, the Pinkerton Detective Agency was a remarkably progressive organization under Allan Pinkerton. Pinkerton himself only escaped dying with John Brown at Harper's Ferry due to coming down with Pneumonia just before leaving Chicago (a significant number of Brown's 19 men were Pinkerton Agents); and was a staunch, radical abolitionist and supporter of the Union throughout the Civil War. Allan Pinkerton was a fantastic detective and analyst - he was one of the the primary inspirations for both Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes - Doyle didn't think one person with all those skillsets was believable (ironically, the other primary inspiration - Eugene Vidocq in France - had similar dual skillset). Under Lincoln, the Pinkertons became the prototype of the CIA, FBI, and modern Secret Service - and were fantastically good at all of them, as Pinkerton held little to traditional ideas about the capability of minorities and women, employing both enthusiastically and creating a large pool of talent as a result. However, after the Civil War, the power of the Pinkertons in the Federal Government was a big issue for former Southern States. One of the first "Reconciliation" points was extracting the Pinkertons from their functions in the federal government. Those agents interested in investigation (including Pinkerton himself) ended up in the Justice Department and would eventually become the FBI, those in intelligence wound up under the Military as MI (later OSS and then CIA), those interested in protection joined the actual Secret Service. . . . And those primarily interested in busting heads, became the private entity known as Pinkerton. Alan Pinkerton had mostly retired by then, and they became a sort of private army for strike-breaking and strong-arming citizens out of the way of the railroads. That's the "Pinkertons" most know, they of Western storybook bad guys and the villains of labour movements. Allan Pinkerton himself wasn't a big fan of labor unions, but only because most unions of the time were segregated, which he could not stand - but otherwise the later actions of the "Pinkertons" had little to do with his influence. [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/136zayf/whats_up_with_the_pinkertons_why_does_everyone/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/136zayf/whats...
morelisp 3y ago
Not only are they still around, they're not happy that everyone knows they're the baddies. https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/02/pinkerton-red-dead-redemption-2-lawsuit-history.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/02/pinkerton-red-dead-...

carlmr 3y ago

There was no evidence of wrongdoing on his part. Even if they had evidence that he stole something, a private militia shouldn't be called to enforce this, but a police investigation. Somebody at WotC should be held liable for this. Are there no laws in America against this?

colpabar 3y ago
[flagged]
phpisthebest 3y ago
Yes, but it requires people to know their legal rights, and engage with them Had the police been called most likely the police would have said "this is a civil matter" not done nothing, at most taken a report for a detective to investigate the alleged theft. Also had the homeowner just said "leave my property", and then the police called, the private militia would then be trespassing and the police would remove them. Here however the homeowner basically consented to the actions, the search, and the seizure while under threat of additional legal action they still consented. Know your rights.
- mindslight 3y ago
  That is a good description of what is, but not what ought to be. It's very easy to discuss this after the fact, detached from the situation with a calm head, and be confident that this victim would have been legally in the clear. But rational analysis is sorely absent when an armed gang shows up at your door demanding something and threatening more violence if you don't comply. The legal dynamic in the US has basically evolved to justify shakedown behavior, where it's technically possible to "stand up" for your rights if you know the exact song and dance at the right time, but practically most people don't and can't. Whereas what really needs to happen is for various aggressor parties to be legally restrained from using coercion to begin with. And that's not even touching the dynamic where various types of aggressors end up shooting first despite being in the wrong, cry "self defense", and then successfully avoid getting charged with second degree murder.
  - phpisthebest 3y ago
    >>But rational analysis is sorely absent when an armed gang shows up at your door demanding something and threatening more violence if you don't comply. That is why my standing policy is to never answer the door unless I am expecting someone. Even for package delivery I have a table for them to leave the package on. >>Whereas what really needs to happen is for various aggressor parties to be legally restrained from using coercion to begin with. Examples of laws where this happens would be great. >>And that's not even touching the dynamic where various types of aggressors end up shooting first despite being in the wrong, cry "self defense", and then successfully avoid getting charged with second degree murder. Examples please.
    - mindslight 3y ago
      > That is why my standing policy is to never answer the door unless Sure. "Standing policy" implies that you've spent a bunch of time thinking it out, presumably thinking about the corner cases (police are there and they aren't leaving), and also concluding that you're willing to forgo answering the door in times it would have been beneficial. That's all work and preparation that you're taking for granted, that frankly most people don't have time for. It would be akin to me railing against people for using GMail, as I run my own mail server. The world is too big to micromanage everything. If physical security is one of your hobbies that is fantastic. But it's wrong to assert that it's universal. > Examples of laws where this happens would be great. The point is that we're sorely lacking those laws, or at least enforcement of them. This particular situation should result in charges of armed robbery, but I doubt it will. But even my saying that is wrong, as it buys into this high stakes paradigm. Rather, how about a simple misdemeanor law that prohibits the bringing firearms onto someone else's residential real estate, unless a sign is posted that explicitly allowed it? > Examples please I feel bad for coming back to this example so often, but I don't stay up on the latest unjustified murder of the week and its details are beyond reproach - Breonna Taylor. That was perpetrated by "police" rather than corporate thugs, but it's exactly the dynamic of someone acting exactly as the legal system implies they should to preserve their rights, ending up with their girlfriend being murdered, and still no justice being served.
Reubachi 3y ago
why would this necessitate a police investigation? Even greater waste of time, now affecting the taxpayer. Guy bought item, company sent item. That's it. Company can ask for it back citing an internal misrelease, or not. Guy can ignore, or not. No breach, theft at all. Quite Literally a non story I feel silly even commenting about. Why did OP share this a month later? Not HN material.

pmoriarty 3y ago

Yes, the Pinkertons are still a thing. There was an interesting post about them here: [1] Some choice quotes from that thread: They became famous when Lincoln used them as spies during the Civil War. They became infamous when American industrialists started employing them as union/labor strikebreakers & private police forces who weren’t held accountable by the US government. For some of their most egregious examples of strike-breaking, check out their part in Carnegie’s Homestead Mill Strike & how they turned a peaceful assembly of strikers into Chicago’s Haymarket Riot. From the US Library of Congress What began as a detective agency in Chicago grew into a national private police force. *The Pinkertons stood against organized labor at nearly every turn* from Haymarket to Homestead and famously took down the Molly Maguires, while instilling fear in the hearts of fugitives across the country. ... Ironically, the Pinkerton Detective Agency was a remarkably progressive organization under Allan Pinkerton. Pinkerton himself only escaped dying with John Brown at Harper's Ferry due to coming down with Pneumonia just before leaving Chicago (a significant number of Brown's 19 men were Pinkerton Agents); and was a staunch, radical abolitionist and supporter of the Union throughout the Civil War. Allan Pinkerton was a fantastic detective and analyst - he was one of the the primary inspirations for both Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes - Doyle didn't think one person with all those skillsets was believable (ironically, the other primary inspiration - Eugene Vidocq in France - had similar dual skillset). Under Lincoln, the Pinkertons became the prototype of the CIA, FBI, and modern Secret Service - and were fantastically good at all of them, as Pinkerton held little to traditional ideas about the capability of minorities and women, employing both enthusiastically and creating a large pool of talent as a result. However, after the Civil War, the power of the Pinkertons in the Federal Government was a big issue for former Southern States. One of the first "Reconciliation" points was extracting the Pinkertons from their functions in the federal government. Those agents interested in investigation (including Pinkerton himself) ended up in the Justice Department and would eventually become the FBI, those in intelligence wound up under the Military as MI (later OSS and then CIA), those interested in protection joined the actual Secret Service. . . . And those primarily interested in busting heads, became the private entity known as Pinkerton. Alan Pinkerton had mostly retired by then, and they became a sort of private army for strike-breaking and strong-arming citizens out of the way of the railroads. That's the "Pinkertons" most know, they of Western storybook bad guys and the villains of labour movements. Allan Pinkerton himself wasn't a big fan of labor unions, but only because most unions of the time were segregated, which he could not stand - but otherwise the later actions of the "Pinkertons" had little to do with his influence. [1] - https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/136zayf/whats_up_with_the_pinkertons_why_does_everyone/ https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/136zayf/whats...

morelisp 3y ago

Not only are they still around, they're not happy that everyone knows they're the baddies. https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/02/pinkerton-red-dead-redemption-2-lawsuit-history.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/02/pinkerton-red-dead-...