6 ms·

Unfortunately, TMS is extremely expensive and not likely to be covered by most insurance plans. Even with a decent PPO, I was quoted about $1k a treatment and t

Unfortunately, TMS is extremely expensive and not likely to be covered by most insurance plans. Even with a decent PPO, I was quoted about $1k a treatment and they said I needed at minimum 30 treatments.

radicaldreamer 3y ago
There are effective alternatives which are a fraction of the cost: ketamine (sublingual ~100mg every few days), psilocybin (free? cheap 2-3g ~4 weeks), rapamycin + ketamine also seems promising (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9).
- wizzwizz4 3y ago
  I would recommend against trying to self-prescribe addictive substances.
  - rozularen 3y ago
    I don't think any of those are addictive actually
    - marcellus23 3y ago
      just because they're not chemically addictive doesn't mean they're not addictive. Weed isn't chemically addictive but plenty of people struggle with it nonetheless.
      - blastro 3y ago
        same with food?
        marcellus23 3y ago
        Well, yes. That's what "food addiction" is.
      - kyleyeats 3y ago
        Weed is chemically addictive. Your endocannabinoid system is downregulated for weeks after heavy use. You get withdrawal symptoms which are alleviated by use. I've never seen the phrase "chemically addictive" used by someone who knew what they were talking about. It's only used by people who don't understand that neurotransmitters are chemicals too. Stop spreading this BS distinction.
        mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
        Yeah, a lot of the withdrawal symptoms are so mild or transient people don't think of them as withdrawal or even make the connection. And people seem to think that anything less severe than shivering and unbearable pain, delirium, doesn't qualify as withdrawal. The most memorable withdrawal symptom from weed for me was the sweating. Cannabinoids tend to affect the hypothalamus which is sort of like the brain's control module for the endocrine system. And one of the things it controls is temperature regulation. So if you quit cold turkey that all gets outta wack and the sweating happens. Takes at least a couple of weeks to get somewhat back to normal.
        hirvi74 3y ago
        Correct me if I am mistaken, but aren't withdrawal symptoms more indicative of a dependency than an addiction? Cessation of SSRIs can have all kinds of symptoms depending on the time length of usage, but I have never heard someone claim to be addicted to SSRIs.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        marcellus23 3y ago
        I agree with you. I should have put "chemically addictive" in scare-quotes to make it clear that I think the distinction is silly.
        kyleyeats 3y ago
        My bad and no offense. I'm a reader darkly. Italics/asterisks are also good.
      - radicaldreamer 3y ago
        Psilocybin’s addictive potential is limited to at least 1 week intervals since it would have no effect if taken more often. Most people “addicted” wait much longer than that — sometimes months to make sure they have a strong trip and offset receptor down-regulation to the point where it can hardly be called an addiction.
    - wizzwizz4 3y ago
      Ketamine is definitely addictive for a lot of people. Rapamycin isn't one I've heard of before, but it looks like a does-lots-of-things drug: Wikipedia says it's an immunosuppressant. I'd recommend against DIYing that for a different reason.
      - radicaldreamer 3y ago
        Ketamine at the doses prescribed for treating depression has low addictive potential. The doses used recreationally are multiples of what is regimen for anti-depressive effects.
- q845712 3y ago
  I was hoping you were going to link to a DIY tms, so i will: https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulation-TMS-Device/ https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulat... Note the disclaimers, especially "TOUCHING THE DEVICE WRONG DURING ASSEMBLY CAN INSTANTLY KILL YOU. THIS DEVICE COULD KILL YOU OR MAIM YOU OR BREAK YOUR MIND." However the other things you're posting are alternative chemical treatments. People with resistant depression have already tried the approved chemical remedies. While I broadly agree that there's evidence in favor of both psilocybin and ketamine being potent chemical anti-depressants, I also think there's a number of valid reasons for someone to reach a point where they don't want to try any other chemical remedies, and ECT / TMS become more compelling options.
  - radicaldreamer 3y ago
    Wow, I didn’t even consider that there’s a DIY version of the equipment.
  - lethologica 3y ago
    With a warning like that, it might be worth trying if you’re suicidal! Nothing to lose! This is a joke of course…
tomrod 3y ago
biohacking feasibility?
- rideontime 3y ago
  searching hackaday for "transcranial" turns up a few results. have fun! https://hackaday.com/2017/03/31/transcranial-electrical-stimulation-with-arduino-hot-glue/ https://hackaday.com/2017/03/31/transcranial-electrical-stim...
- bluechair 3y ago
  Biohacking is not feasible at this time—at least in my opinion: * TMS machine is a powerful precise device that is expensive and unlikely to be safe from doing-it-yourself * Every brain is different, so, you’ll need to get an MRI if not an fMRI to understand the structure to target * Once you have a target, you’ll need to align the device with your skull * It’s not clear how you’d measure or control the regime on the brain, even if you made it to here The last thing I’ll say is that you should look for the complaints made against TMS device manufacturers. I’m optimistic that this approach will work for some people; I know many people who could benefit from this technology but I’m not comfortable with recommending it to a family member when I know there’s a risk of permanent brain damage, tinnitus, etc. Please fact check my claims by visiting the US government database to find complaints against these TMS manufacturers: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/search.cfm https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/s... Top manufacturers should be a Google search away. You’ll find examples of seizures, etc in there.
supernikio2 3y ago
That might be the case today, but I reckon it will become cheaper as time goes on, if found promising of course.
JohnMakin 3y ago
Another issue is that the effect doesn't seem to be permanent, and additional treatments as time goes on has been observed in people who show improvement from the treatment. So, I really hope it gets much cheaper.
levi_n 3y ago
I paid ~$2k (with insurance) for 8 weeks of therapy, with one 45 minute session every weekday.
zamnos 3y ago
Still, it is an FDA approved treatment, so for other readers suffering from depression, it's worth seeing if your insurance covers it. For me, it was covered, and worth it.

radicaldreamer 3y ago

There are effective alternatives which are a fraction of the cost: ketamine (sublingual ~100mg every few days), psilocybin (free? cheap 2-3g ~4 weeks), rapamycin + ketamine also seems promising (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-020-0644-9).

wizzwizz4 3y ago
I would recommend against trying to self-prescribe addictive substances.
- rozularen 3y ago
  I don't think any of those are addictive actually
  - marcellus23 3y ago
    just because they're not chemically addictive doesn't mean they're not addictive. Weed isn't chemically addictive but plenty of people struggle with it nonetheless.
    - blastro 3y ago
      same with food?
      - marcellus23 3y ago
        Well, yes. That's what "food addiction" is.
    - kyleyeats 3y ago
      Weed is chemically addictive. Your endocannabinoid system is downregulated for weeks after heavy use. You get withdrawal symptoms which are alleviated by use. I've never seen the phrase "chemically addictive" used by someone who knew what they were talking about. It's only used by people who don't understand that neurotransmitters are chemicals too. Stop spreading this BS distinction.
      - mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
        Yeah, a lot of the withdrawal symptoms are so mild or transient people don't think of them as withdrawal or even make the connection. And people seem to think that anything less severe than shivering and unbearable pain, delirium, doesn't qualify as withdrawal. The most memorable withdrawal symptom from weed for me was the sweating. Cannabinoids tend to affect the hypothalamus which is sort of like the brain's control module for the endocrine system. And one of the things it controls is temperature regulation. So if you quit cold turkey that all gets outta wack and the sweating happens. Takes at least a couple of weeks to get somewhat back to normal.
      - hirvi74 3y ago
        Correct me if I am mistaken, but aren't withdrawal symptoms more indicative of a dependency than an addiction? Cessation of SSRIs can have all kinds of symptoms depending on the time length of usage, but I have never heard someone claim to be addicted to SSRIs.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - marcellus23 3y ago
        I agree with you. I should have put "chemically addictive" in scare-quotes to make it clear that I think the distinction is silly.
        kyleyeats 3y ago
        My bad and no offense. I'm a reader darkly. Italics/asterisks are also good.
    - radicaldreamer 3y ago
      Psilocybin’s addictive potential is limited to at least 1 week intervals since it would have no effect if taken more often. Most people “addicted” wait much longer than that — sometimes months to make sure they have a strong trip and offset receptor down-regulation to the point where it can hardly be called an addiction.
  - wizzwizz4 3y ago
    Ketamine is definitely addictive for a lot of people. Rapamycin isn't one I've heard of before, but it looks like a does-lots-of-things drug: Wikipedia says it's an immunosuppressant. I'd recommend against DIYing that for a different reason.
    - radicaldreamer 3y ago
      Ketamine at the doses prescribed for treating depression has low addictive potential. The doses used recreationally are multiples of what is regimen for anti-depressive effects.
q845712 3y ago
I was hoping you were going to link to a DIY tms, so i will: https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulation-TMS-Device/ https://www.instructables.com/Transcranial-Magnetic-Stimulat... Note the disclaimers, especially "TOUCHING THE DEVICE WRONG DURING ASSEMBLY CAN INSTANTLY KILL YOU. THIS DEVICE COULD KILL YOU OR MAIM YOU OR BREAK YOUR MIND." However the other things you're posting are alternative chemical treatments. People with resistant depression have already tried the approved chemical remedies. While I broadly agree that there's evidence in favor of both psilocybin and ketamine being potent chemical anti-depressants, I also think there's a number of valid reasons for someone to reach a point where they don't want to try any other chemical remedies, and ECT / TMS become more compelling options.
- radicaldreamer 3y ago
  Wow, I didn’t even consider that there’s a DIY version of the equipment.
- lethologica 3y ago
  With a warning like that, it might be worth trying if you’re suicidal! Nothing to lose! This is a joke of course…

tomrod 3y ago

biohacking feasibility?

rideontime 3y ago
searching hackaday for "transcranial" turns up a few results. have fun! https://hackaday.com/2017/03/31/transcranial-electrical-stimulation-with-arduino-hot-glue/ https://hackaday.com/2017/03/31/transcranial-electrical-stim...
bluechair 3y ago
Biohacking is not feasible at this time—at least in my opinion: * TMS machine is a powerful precise device that is expensive and unlikely to be safe from doing-it-yourself * Every brain is different, so, you’ll need to get an MRI if not an fMRI to understand the structure to target * Once you have a target, you’ll need to align the device with your skull * It’s not clear how you’d measure or control the regime on the brain, even if you made it to here The last thing I’ll say is that you should look for the complaints made against TMS device manufacturers. I’m optimistic that this approach will work for some people; I know many people who could benefit from this technology but I’m not comfortable with recommending it to a family member when I know there’s a risk of permanent brain damage, tinnitus, etc. Please fact check my claims by visiting the US government database to find complaints against these TMS manufacturers: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/search.cfm https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfmaude/s... Top manufacturers should be a Google search away. You’ll find examples of seizures, etc in there.

supernikio2 3y ago

That might be the case today, but I reckon it will become cheaper as time goes on, if found promising of course.

JohnMakin 3y ago

Another issue is that the effect doesn't seem to be permanent, and additional treatments as time goes on has been observed in people who show improvement from the treatment. So, I really hope it gets much cheaper.

levi_n 3y ago

I paid ~$2k (with insurance) for 8 weeks of therapy, with one 45 minute session every weekday.

zamnos 3y ago

Still, it is an FDA approved treatment, so for other readers suffering from depression, it's worth seeing if your insurance covers it. For me, it was covered, and worth it.