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All it shows is that rights-holders with a large legal war chest can win specific cases. There is not a single musician or songwriter that I have met who wasn’t

All it shows is that rights-holders with a large legal war chest can win specific cases. There is not a single musician or songwriter that I have met who wasn’t appalled by the Robin Thicke ruling. Luckily history didn’t repeat itself with Ed Sheeran. Here's a concise explanation of why this was a terrible ruling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI If the entire music industry operated in such a manner it would suffocate creativity. I think what you’re really trying to do is win an argument that supports your opinions on LLMs. Generally speaking, the Robin Thicke case was an aberration. If it was the norm then the music industry would look incredibly different. As in, there wouldn’t be a music industry. We can go back and forth cherry-picking court cases or we can discuss the doctrines that courts are encouraged to follow, like the idea-expression distinction. An overwhelming number of copyright cases have been decided based on this doctrine! It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise!

Retric 3y ago
I understand your perspective, but I think you’re still missing my point. Winning a court case isn’t safe, getting the court case thrown out before it needs to be litigated is. You really don’t want to be in a position where someone with deep pockets can make a reasonable argument for infringement. The question of LLM’s is really secondary. It’s likely they could win, but that in itself is very dangerous territory.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  So to be safe a songwriter should just quit music, just as Ed Sheeran said he would do if he lost his case… gotcha.
  - Retric 3y ago
    That’s clearly not what I said. To be a safe songwriter, don’t imitate other works. The lines are actually pretty gentle in practice as long as you avoid actively copying from other works.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      Go find a Black Keys song that isn’t playing the same blues rock riffs that guitarists have been imitating for the last 70 years! What about a drum pattern like a four-on-the-floor disco beat? What about entire genres of electronic dance music? What about chord progressions? Should songwriters avoid the I-IV-V? Do you know how many songs are ii-vi-V-I? What about literally any classic country song? Do The Strokes owe the band Television royalties for imitating their driving 8th note, interwoven guitar riffs? Here's a good conversation around the roots of an aphorism typically attributed to Picasso, "good artists copy, great artists steal.": https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Are you a songwriter or a musician? If so, how can you make music without imitating any number of factors? Do you make your own instruments? Do you have your own harmonic system with your own scales? I can't think of any creed that is more destined to result in terrible art than "playing it safe"! EDIT: Oh, "don't imitate anyone" is a close second! The one-two punch of playing it safe and not imitating anyone is just, I mean, I can't even...
      - Retric 3y ago
        Look, if you can find several independent examples of something then no you’re not imitating someone specific. But, if out of millions of songs there only one person who did X don’t assuming copying X is fine. The line isn’t anywhere close to the hyperbole you and many other people are bringing up. Don’t copy other peoples work isn’t some unrealistic burden, it’s the basic foundation of copyright.
        williamcotton 3y ago
        To anyone else who might come across this discussion and you make or want to make art, please don’t take this person’s advice. I am a songwriter and a recording artist. I and every other musician I’ve ever worked with have conversed in the language of our predecessors. We constantly listen to other records while making our own and borrow drum patterns, guitar sounds, chord progressions… just as all of our favorite musicians did before us. If you don’t do this and you go off on some quest for pure originality, you are engaged in pure narcissism and you will make terrible art. Show me your favorite record and I can break down where every single element of every single song came from. I'm going to guess that you have basically no experience making music. Here's just a couple of the records I've made: https://williamcotton.bandcamp.com/album/melencolia-i https://williamcotton.bandcamp.com/album/melencolia-i https://willieandallie.bandcamp.com/album/between-a-rock-and-a-country-place https://willieandallie.bandcamp.com/album/between-a-rock-and...

Retric 3y ago

I understand your perspective, but I think you’re still missing my point. Winning a court case isn’t safe, getting the court case thrown out before it needs to be litigated is. You really don’t want to be in a position where someone with deep pockets can make a reasonable argument for infringement. The question of LLM’s is really secondary. It’s likely they could win, but that in itself is very dangerous territory.

williamcotton 3y ago
So to be safe a songwriter should just quit music, just as Ed Sheeran said he would do if he lost his case… gotcha.
- Retric 3y ago
  That’s clearly not what I said. To be a safe songwriter, don’t imitate other works. The lines are actually pretty gentle in practice as long as you avoid actively copying from other works.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    Go find a Black Keys song that isn’t playing the same blues rock riffs that guitarists have been imitating for the last 70 years! What about a drum pattern like a four-on-the-floor disco beat? What about entire genres of electronic dance music? What about chord progressions? Should songwriters avoid the I-IV-V? Do you know how many songs are ii-vi-V-I? What about literally any classic country song? Do The Strokes owe the band Television royalties for imitating their driving 8th note, interwoven guitar riffs? Here's a good conversation around the roots of an aphorism typically attributed to Picasso, "good artists copy, great artists steal.": https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Are you a songwriter or a musician? If so, how can you make music without imitating any number of factors? Do you make your own instruments? Do you have your own harmonic system with your own scales? I can't think of any creed that is more destined to result in terrible art than "playing it safe"! EDIT: Oh, "don't imitate anyone" is a close second! The one-two punch of playing it safe and not imitating anyone is just, I mean, I can't even...
    - Retric 3y ago
      Look, if you can find several independent examples of something then no you’re not imitating someone specific. But, if out of millions of songs there only one person who did X don’t assuming copying X is fine. The line isn’t anywhere close to the hyperbole you and many other people are bringing up. Don’t copy other peoples work isn’t some unrealistic burden, it’s the basic foundation of copyright.
      - williamcotton 3y ago
        To anyone else who might come across this discussion and you make or want to make art, please don’t take this person’s advice. I am a songwriter and a recording artist. I and every other musician I’ve ever worked with have conversed in the language of our predecessors. We constantly listen to other records while making our own and borrow drum patterns, guitar sounds, chord progressions… just as all of our favorite musicians did before us. If you don’t do this and you go off on some quest for pure originality, you are engaged in pure narcissism and you will make terrible art. Show me your favorite record and I can break down where every single element of every single song came from. I'm going to guess that you have basically no experience making music. Here's just a couple of the records I've made: https://williamcotton.bandcamp.com/album/melencolia-i https://williamcotton.bandcamp.com/album/melencolia-i https://willieandallie.bandcamp.com/album/between-a-rock-and-a-country-place https://willieandallie.bandcamp.com/album/between-a-rock-and...