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Ok, so then back at you: That Ms. Rowling and her publisher won doesn’t mean that style is covered by copyright either. It could just mean they had a more expe

Ok, so then back at you: That Ms. Rowling and her publisher won doesn’t mean that style is covered by copyright either. It could just mean they had a more expensive legal team. One of the key elements of copyright is this doctrine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea%E2%80%93expression_distinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idea%E2%80%93expression_distin... An adventure novel provides an illustration of the concept. Copyright may subsist in the work as a whole, in the particular story or characters involved, or in any artwork contained in the book, but generally not in the idea or genre of the story. Also, let’s take a step back. What do you think is a fair outcome, that once John Fogerty sold the rights to one CCR song that he is no longer able to write music? Or that he needed to learn to write and play an entirely new genre? Does the first music publisher to buy a reggae song now own the rights to every single reggae song produced after? What are you arguing for?

Retric 3y ago
I am not arguing for anything, just describing the system as it exists. > Or that he needed to learn to write and play an entirely new genre? As the court case you mentioned shows genre isn’t specific enough to be problematic. I can’t draw a clear line in the sand and say this is safe because ultimately that’s up to the courts to determine in each instance. But, it is important to understand the general areas that are risky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgeport_Music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgepor... Appellate Court Judge Jacqueline Nguyen wrote a dissenting opinion: “that the judgement allows for protection over musical style” That doesn’t mean “style” is enough to lose a copyright case, but shows such things are potentially problematic.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  All it shows is that rights-holders with a large legal war chest can win specific cases. There is not a single musician or songwriter that I have met who wasn’t appalled by the Robin Thicke ruling. Luckily history didn’t repeat itself with Ed Sheeran. Here's a concise explanation of why this was a terrible ruling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI If the entire music industry operated in such a manner it would suffocate creativity. I think what you’re really trying to do is win an argument that supports your opinions on LLMs. Generally speaking, the Robin Thicke case was an aberration. If it was the norm then the music industry would look incredibly different. As in, there wouldn’t be a music industry. We can go back and forth cherry-picking court cases or we can discuss the doctrines that courts are encouraged to follow, like the idea-expression distinction. An overwhelming number of copyright cases have been decided based on this doctrine! It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise!
  - Retric 3y ago
    I understand your perspective, but I think you’re still missing my point. Winning a court case isn’t safe, getting the court case thrown out before it needs to be litigated is. You really don’t want to be in a position where someone with deep pockets can make a reasonable argument for infringement. The question of LLM’s is really secondary. It’s likely they could win, but that in itself is very dangerous territory.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      So to be safe a songwriter should just quit music, just as Ed Sheeran said he would do if he lost his case… gotcha.
      - Retric 3y ago
        That’s clearly not what I said. To be a safe songwriter, don’t imitate other works. The lines are actually pretty gentle in practice as long as you avoid actively copying from other works.
        williamcotton 3y ago
        Go find a Black Keys song that isn’t playing the same blues rock riffs that guitarists have been imitating for the last 70 years! What about a drum pattern like a four-on-the-floor disco beat? What about entire genres of electronic dance music? What about chord progressions? Should songwriters avoid the I-IV-V? Do you know how many songs are ii-vi-V-I? What about literally any classic country song? Do The Strokes owe the band Television royalties for imitating their driving 8th note, interwoven guitar riffs? Here's a good conversation around the roots of an aphorism typically attributed to Picasso, "good artists copy, great artists steal.": https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Are you a songwriter or a musician? If so, how can you make music without imitating any number of factors? Do you make your own instruments? Do you have your own harmonic system with your own scales? I can't think of any creed that is more destined to result in terrible art than "playing it safe"! EDIT: Oh, "don't imitate anyone" is a close second! The one-two punch of playing it safe and not imitating anyone is just, I mean, I can't even...

Retric 3y ago

I am not arguing for anything, just describing the system as it exists. > Or that he needed to learn to write and play an entirely new genre? As the court case you mentioned shows genre isn’t specific enough to be problematic. I can’t draw a clear line in the sand and say this is safe because ultimately that’s up to the courts to determine in each instance. But, it is important to understand the general areas that are risky. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgeport_Music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharrell_Williams_v._Bridgepor... Appellate Court Judge Jacqueline Nguyen wrote a dissenting opinion: “that the judgement allows for protection over musical style” That doesn’t mean “style” is enough to lose a copyright case, but shows such things are potentially problematic.

williamcotton 3y ago
All it shows is that rights-holders with a large legal war chest can win specific cases. There is not a single musician or songwriter that I have met who wasn’t appalled by the Robin Thicke ruling. Luckily history didn’t repeat itself with Ed Sheeran. Here's a concise explanation of why this was a terrible ruling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1COYitP8hI If the entire music industry operated in such a manner it would suffocate creativity. I think what you’re really trying to do is win an argument that supports your opinions on LLMs. Generally speaking, the Robin Thicke case was an aberration. If it was the norm then the music industry would look incredibly different. As in, there wouldn’t be a music industry. We can go back and forth cherry-picking court cases or we can discuss the doctrines that courts are encouraged to follow, like the idea-expression distinction. An overwhelming number of copyright cases have been decided based on this doctrine! It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise!
- Retric 3y ago
  I understand your perspective, but I think you’re still missing my point. Winning a court case isn’t safe, getting the court case thrown out before it needs to be litigated is. You really don’t want to be in a position where someone with deep pockets can make a reasonable argument for infringement. The question of LLM’s is really secondary. It’s likely they could win, but that in itself is very dangerous territory.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    So to be safe a songwriter should just quit music, just as Ed Sheeran said he would do if he lost his case… gotcha.
    - Retric 3y ago
      That’s clearly not what I said. To be a safe songwriter, don’t imitate other works. The lines are actually pretty gentle in practice as long as you avoid actively copying from other works.
      - williamcotton 3y ago
        Go find a Black Keys song that isn’t playing the same blues rock riffs that guitarists have been imitating for the last 70 years! What about a drum pattern like a four-on-the-floor disco beat? What about entire genres of electronic dance music? What about chord progressions? Should songwriters avoid the I-IV-V? Do you know how many songs are ii-vi-V-I? What about literally any classic country song? Do The Strokes owe the band Television royalties for imitating their driving 8th note, interwoven guitar riffs? Here's a good conversation around the roots of an aphorism typically attributed to Picasso, "good artists copy, great artists steal.": https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/03/06/artists-steal/ Are you a songwriter or a musician? If so, how can you make music without imitating any number of factors? Do you make your own instruments? Do you have your own harmonic system with your own scales? I can't think of any creed that is more destined to result in terrible art than "playing it safe"! EDIT: Oh, "don't imitate anyone" is a close second! The one-two punch of playing it safe and not imitating anyone is just, I mean, I can't even...