5 ms·

Some of the worst hires come through word-of-mouth referrals, too. That's how you get unqualified nepotism hires. In fact, networking can be thought of as a for

Some of the worst hires come through word-of-mouth referrals, too. That's how you get unqualified nepotism hires. In fact, networking can be thought of as a form of nepotism or cronyism (depending on how touchy a given person is about "nepotism" being applied to the manner in which they got their position). I know I'm likely alone in viewing such hiring practices - feelings over process - as signal of an impending collapse. I think it's a sound heuristic, though, at least for previously-established companies. If you're not connected to eminently-qualified potential hires (and you're probably overestimating the quality of your network), "hire my friends" is a sure way to end up with an increasingly incompetent workforce.

alfalfasprout 3y ago
I've gone back and forth on this and now am firmly in the feelings > process camp if you have competent folks making the hiring decisions and you train everyone well in avoiding unconscious bias. The reality is that strong soft-skills are crucial to hiring the best talent and those skills cannot be "objectively" tested. Even software engineering to a large degree requires a lot of design-related traits that require subjectivity in assessment.
- mrkurt 3y ago
  You can test soft skills. Evaluations don't need to be objective, they just need to be consistent.
  - cwalv 3y ago
    Doesn't 'subjective' imply 'inconsistent' unless you have one subject doing all the evaluations?
    - hughesjj 3y ago
      In that case, wouldn't that select for generally likable people? Idk sounds like evolution to me. Of course, though, that's going to encode some existing biases in the data, but we could keep adding them to protected classes if society thinks they're worthy of inclusion. That last part is pretty flawed today and changes slowly, I admit, but overall this system sure as heck solves more problems than I could come up with. At least, I think it converges over time.
- blitzar 3y ago
  An often overlooked job requirement is that you have to sit next to this person for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. There are no leetcode tests for that.
mikrl 3y ago
Speaking of nepotism: on LinkedIn via my network, I saw a senior manager in a Bay Area company asking publicly for internships for his university age daughter. I shook my head in amazement, then felt absolutely mortified on behalf of that poor woman. At best, she is living in her father’s shadow. At worst, she is being denied valuable life lessons of the feeling of being allowed to fail and get back up.
- beckingz 3y ago
  That's how networks work. Ask and you might receive.
- throw9away6 3y ago
  Nah that’s what you do to get your kid in the door. It works and it helps.
  - mikrl 3y ago
    It’s stunting independence and setting a nepotistic precedent is what it is.
    - sumedh 3y ago
      > setting a nepotistic precedent is what it is That is how the world works.
- NegativeLatency 3y ago
  Personally I’d be fine with someone doing this for me. It was hard and scary to land my first job out of school
- godelski 3y ago
  Honest question, how is this meaningfully different from a recruiter? Sounds like a recruiter with intimate knowledge of the candidate and a strong network. A biased recruiter, but aren't all? I mean a recruiter doesn't get paid unless they get someone a job (and they get more money for a hire paying).
hef19898 3y ago
I am a big fan of both, word-of-mouthbreferalls and sttict hirijg processes, read Amazon (without leetcode, I am no dev). If youbsomeone good, get them the first invite for the phone screening or even an on-site interview. But then recuse yourself from the hiring process, don't interview, don't participate in the decision making. That way, you are not the only one influencing the hiring, ypu just made it easier for someone to get the first foot in the door. Of course this isn't perfect, people might be biased to please higher ups or collegues by prefering those referral candidates. Or you might end up indirectly influencing thebhiring decision, intentionally or not. But still better than some AI based CV screening or pure nepotism.
laratied 3y ago
The hiring process is basically a stochastic process with time wasting theatrical performances on both sides. I honestly believe at some stage there should just be a random number generator making the selection. Especially if the final selection is between a couple of highly qualified candidates.

alfalfasprout 3y ago

I've gone back and forth on this and now am firmly in the feelings > process camp if you have competent folks making the hiring decisions and you train everyone well in avoiding unconscious bias. The reality is that strong soft-skills are crucial to hiring the best talent and those skills cannot be "objectively" tested. Even software engineering to a large degree requires a lot of design-related traits that require subjectivity in assessment.

mrkurt 3y ago
You can test soft skills. Evaluations don't need to be objective, they just need to be consistent.
- cwalv 3y ago
  Doesn't 'subjective' imply 'inconsistent' unless you have one subject doing all the evaluations?
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    In that case, wouldn't that select for generally likable people? Idk sounds like evolution to me. Of course, though, that's going to encode some existing biases in the data, but we could keep adding them to protected classes if society thinks they're worthy of inclusion. That last part is pretty flawed today and changes slowly, I admit, but overall this system sure as heck solves more problems than I could come up with. At least, I think it converges over time.
blitzar 3y ago
An often overlooked job requirement is that you have to sit next to this person for 8 hours a day 5 days a week. There are no leetcode tests for that.

mikrl 3y ago

Speaking of nepotism: on LinkedIn via my network, I saw a senior manager in a Bay Area company asking publicly for internships for his university age daughter. I shook my head in amazement, then felt absolutely mortified on behalf of that poor woman. At best, she is living in her father’s shadow. At worst, she is being denied valuable life lessons of the feeling of being allowed to fail and get back up.

beckingz 3y ago
That's how networks work. Ask and you might receive.
throw9away6 3y ago
Nah that’s what you do to get your kid in the door. It works and it helps.
- mikrl 3y ago
  It’s stunting independence and setting a nepotistic precedent is what it is.
  - sumedh 3y ago
    > setting a nepotistic precedent is what it is That is how the world works.
NegativeLatency 3y ago
Personally I’d be fine with someone doing this for me. It was hard and scary to land my first job out of school
godelski 3y ago
Honest question, how is this meaningfully different from a recruiter? Sounds like a recruiter with intimate knowledge of the candidate and a strong network. A biased recruiter, but aren't all? I mean a recruiter doesn't get paid unless they get someone a job (and they get more money for a hire paying).

hef19898 3y ago

I am a big fan of both, word-of-mouthbreferalls and sttict hirijg processes, read Amazon (without leetcode, I am no dev). If youbsomeone good, get them the first invite for the phone screening or even an on-site interview. But then recuse yourself from the hiring process, don't interview, don't participate in the decision making. That way, you are not the only one influencing the hiring, ypu just made it easier for someone to get the first foot in the door. Of course this isn't perfect, people might be biased to please higher ups or collegues by prefering those referral candidates. Or you might end up indirectly influencing thebhiring decision, intentionally or not. But still better than some AI based CV screening or pure nepotism.

laratied 3y ago

The hiring process is basically a stochastic process with time wasting theatrical performances on both sides. I honestly believe at some stage there should just be a random number generator making the selection. Especially if the final selection is between a couple of highly qualified candidates.