41 ms·

I'm really getting sick of this, i really cant believe we live in a world where someone downloading a file, perhaps unknowingly, can potentially get more jail t

I'm really getting sick of this, i really cant believe we live in a world where someone downloading a file, perhaps unknowingly, can potentially get more jail time than sex offenders and criminals who commit violent crime.

publicus 15y ago
Should not be surprised, we don't have real democracy after all.
- Joakal 15y ago
  There is still democracy. Join the pirate party. You'll get materials, information, etc, to present to other people. If there's enough mass of people realising that the government and copyright cartels are bullshitting and using pirates as a bogeyman for economic problems, then the people will vote them out.
  - iRobot 15y ago
    Its amazing, how many people you talk to who thinks all this is BS and the system is totally screwed, however it always translates to fuck-all votes at the polls.
    - publicus 15y ago
      You don't get real choices at the polls. We need to get rid of the winner take all system and replace it with a percentage based system.
      - Joakal 15y ago
        UK has instant runoff voting for Upper House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting UK rejected alternative voting in 2011 for Lower House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot... So the winner take all would remain for a while.
        Leynos 15y ago
        For clarity: The upper house (the House of Lords) is appointed, rather than elected. The instant runoff voting was used to select which hereditory peers would be allowed to remain sitting in the house after the number of sitting hereditory peers was reduced to 90 in 1999, with the electorate being other members of the house.
- getsat 15y ago
  What is real democracy if not representative democracy? Direct democracy?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - batista 15y ago
    Of course. Study how the Athenian Democracy worked for example, for, after all, this is the origin of our notion of democracy (and take the exclusion of slaves and women aside, as this was a historical accident --everybody did so then-- and not the essence of the Athenian democratic process --which nobody did like them then, or even now--). But besides direct democracy (which has many forms), there are forms of representative democracy far more democratic. Like every percentage matters, so if a party gets 3% nationwide he gets 3% of the seats, instead of losing it to a "winner takes all" scheme.
    - redslazer 15y ago
      You dont even have to go that far back in history. Switzerland has a thriving, functioning democracy where anyone can get into politics, the will of the people is what counts most and all actions by politicians can easily be overturned by a referendum.
anigbrowl 15y ago
The key word being 'potentially.' Sex offenders and violent criminals can potentially go to jail for life. While the maximum penalty for this offense seems quite excessive to me, I can't really blame the police for simply quoting the statutory provisions. For one thing, there's a basic idea in criminal justice that people should be made aware of the risks they are running, known as constructive notice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_notice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_notice
- r00fus 15y ago
  Excessive punishment, even if it's a theoretical maximum is a travesty of justice. Take a look at the USA where mandatory minimum sentencing [1] is in effect for drug offenses - once a ludicrous maximum is set, all it takes is another measure to put a more "reasonable" minimum and make it mandatory... the Overton window [2] principle applies very well here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_sentencing#Arguments_for_and_against_mandatory_sentencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_sentencing#Arguments_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
  - anigbrowl 15y ago
    Mandatory minimum sentences (as most people think of them) were actually struck down by the Supreme Court seven years ago in US v. Booker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Booker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Booker). The legal arguments are technical and sentencing policy remains something of a gray area. An excess of leniency in past decades led to an excess of punishment later, and inconsistencies in sentencing standards led to the creation of a national commission to establish uniform sentencing guidelines, which were then struck down in Booker for being too inflexible. It's a complex problem, not least because there's no objective metric for deciding what is 'excessive.' For that matter, there isn't even much consensus on what is effective.
    - Joakal 15y ago
      I'm looking at pretty graphs that seem to indicate that excessive sentences in USA is standard. Amount of inmates per 100,000 is rising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... Crime rate per 100,000 is going down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

publicus 15y ago

Should not be surprised, we don't have real democracy after all.

Joakal 15y ago
There is still democracy. Join the pirate party. You'll get materials, information, etc, to present to other people. If there's enough mass of people realising that the government and copyright cartels are bullshitting and using pirates as a bogeyman for economic problems, then the people will vote them out.
- iRobot 15y ago
  Its amazing, how many people you talk to who thinks all this is BS and the system is totally screwed, however it always translates to fuck-all votes at the polls.
  - publicus 15y ago
    You don't get real choices at the polls. We need to get rid of the winner take all system and replace it with a percentage based system.
    - Joakal 15y ago
      UK has instant runoff voting for Upper House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting UK rejected alternative voting in 2011 for Lower House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vote_referendum,_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_Alternative_Vot... So the winner take all would remain for a while.
      - Leynos 15y ago
        For clarity: The upper house (the House of Lords) is appointed, rather than elected. The instant runoff voting was used to select which hereditory peers would be allowed to remain sitting in the house after the number of sitting hereditory peers was reduced to 90 in 1999, with the electorate being other members of the house.
getsat 15y ago
What is real democracy if not representative democracy? Direct democracy?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- batista 15y ago
  Of course. Study how the Athenian Democracy worked for example, for, after all, this is the origin of our notion of democracy (and take the exclusion of slaves and women aside, as this was a historical accident --everybody did so then-- and not the essence of the Athenian democratic process --which nobody did like them then, or even now--). But besides direct democracy (which has many forms), there are forms of representative democracy far more democratic. Like every percentage matters, so if a party gets 3% nationwide he gets 3% of the seats, instead of losing it to a "winner takes all" scheme.
  - redslazer 15y ago
    You dont even have to go that far back in history. Switzerland has a thriving, functioning democracy where anyone can get into politics, the will of the people is what counts most and all actions by politicians can easily be overturned by a referendum.

anigbrowl 15y ago

The key word being 'potentially.' Sex offenders and violent criminals can potentially go to jail for life. While the maximum penalty for this offense seems quite excessive to me, I can't really blame the police for simply quoting the statutory provisions. For one thing, there's a basic idea in criminal justice that people should be made aware of the risks they are running, known as constructive notice: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_notice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_notice

r00fus 15y ago
Excessive punishment, even if it's a theoretical maximum is a travesty of justice. Take a look at the USA where mandatory minimum sentencing [1] is in effect for drug offenses - once a ludicrous maximum is set, all it takes is another measure to put a more "reasonable" minimum and make it mandatory... the Overton window [2] principle applies very well here. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_sentencing#Arguments_for_and_against_mandatory_sentencing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_sentencing#Arguments_... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  Mandatory minimum sentences (as most people think of them) were actually struck down by the Supreme Court seven years ago in US v. Booker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Booker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Booker). The legal arguments are technical and sentencing policy remains something of a gray area. An excess of leniency in past decades led to an excess of punishment later, and inconsistencies in sentencing standards led to the creation of a national commission to establish uniform sentencing guidelines, which were then struck down in Booker for being too inflexible. It's a complex problem, not least because there's no objective metric for deciding what is 'excessive.' For that matter, there isn't even much consensus on what is effective.
  - Joakal 15y ago
    I'm looking at pretty graphs that seem to indicate that excessive sentences in USA is standard. Amount of inmates per 100,000 is rising: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... Crime rate per 100,000 is going down: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States