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> It's impossible to know the other's mind Ask. Don't attack. > So, should they not take English classes either Not at the university level. See next answe

> It's impossible to know the other's mind Ask. Don't attack. > So, should they not take English classes either Not at the university level. See next answer. > Do you think the state of the average high school graduate is sufficient in English It's horrible. This is precisely the kind of failure I am referring to. Why are we assuming that everyone graduating high school must go to college? That is clearly no the case, by a massive margin. Not everyone should or wants to. OK, from that basis, one where the majority of high school students do not move on to college: What should our high school education look like? What results should it deliver? Well, they should have a solid commend of their own language, both spoken and written. Is that too much to ask? There should not be any need for an 18 year old to take English classes at the university level for any major that isn't directly in of this. English and Literature majors? Sure. Law? Not a lawyer, maybe. STEM? C'mon. Another way to look at it is that we are causing serious issues of inequality and reduced opportunity because our high school education is so inadequate that the only way to become useful is to take another year of coursework at the college level. That, again, is a sign of failure. And the consequences to the non-college bound population are severe. > Says you, completely anecdotally, without much to back it up rather than your own singular experience Not sure what you are talking about. A bachelors in Europe takes three years and focuses on degree-related work. It is assumed that general education is what you got in high school. This isn't anecdotal or a singular experience, google it. Are there universities where it takes longer? Maybe, I haven't conducted a full survey. I just know that the idea is to graduate young adults from high school with a solid education and not have to engage in "repair work" at the university level if at all possible. > I have a bunch of friends from High School that never went to college. They are productive members of society Yeah? What do they do? Only list occupations they learned in high school or were able to walk into because they got a useful amount of training in that domain during high school. > so quick to denigrate them Our culture seems to now have the option to interpret the truth as denigration. Not a way to make things better at all. > The first step would be to actually look at the data and figure out what are the problems and what are the strengths. If you're unwilling or unable to see any strengths, perhaps you should look at the problem closer. You don't fix strengths. You fix failures. Go research college dropout rates and think of what happened in high school that did not allow so many students to excel in college.

kbenson 3y ago
> > It's impossible to know the other's mind > Ask. Don't attack. I did. I said I made assumptions, and asked you to clarify. > Our culture seems to now have the option to interpret the truth as denigration. Not a way to make things better at all. Your words were "We graduate ignorant young adults who are barely good enough to stack boxes at a warehouse or make coffee." Of course you're going to just say "the truth hurts" when you're called on that and prevented with someone else's experience that contradicts that. Like every other point you make you're just pulling it out of the air and not supporting it by any means. > Not sure what you are talking about. A bachelors in Europe takes three years and focuses on degree-related work. So? Do people that graduate there have better or worse outcomes and careers when presented with similar situations? Assuming the degrees are equivalent from the U.S. to Europe is the same as assuming every degree from every college in the U.S. is equivalent, or every High School graduates students with equivalent ability. Not only do I think that's completely unsupported in anything you've presented, I think it's very unlikely to be true. > You don't fix strengths. You fix failures. Do you think it's impossible to accidentally reduce or eliminate a strength on accident? I didn't think I was being obtuse, but I'll spell it out again: What if the thing you think is a weakness is actually a strength in other ways that you aren't considering, and by changing it you may make things worse rather than better? Europe is not the U.S. What works there may not work the same here, as much as you seem to think you can just plug it into place. Maybe it would though. Have you even considered these aspects, or is your actual interest so shallow that you're only interested in saying that it would be better and ignoring any of the deeper aspects of what you're proposing? All that's really happening here is you making blanket assertions, me questioning them and asking for the bare minimum of actual thought and effort to support the in some evidenced way, and you making more assertions without evidence to try to support yourself. If you really truly believe what you're saying, don't you owe it to yourself to actually put a little effort into learning the actual details what you so vehemently assert? The questions I have, which you've been plainly unable to answer with any real data (or anything other than repeating yourself, really), are not hard, in my opinion. There what anyone that actually wanted a change and cared about the outcome would want to know.

kbenson 3y ago

> > It's impossible to know the other's mind > Ask. Don't attack. I did. I said I made assumptions, and asked you to clarify. > Our culture seems to now have the option to interpret the truth as denigration. Not a way to make things better at all. Your words were "We graduate ignorant young adults who are barely good enough to stack boxes at a warehouse or make coffee." Of course you're going to just say "the truth hurts" when you're called on that and prevented with someone else's experience that contradicts that. Like every other point you make you're just pulling it out of the air and not supporting it by any means. > Not sure what you are talking about. A bachelors in Europe takes three years and focuses on degree-related work. So? Do people that graduate there have better or worse outcomes and careers when presented with similar situations? Assuming the degrees are equivalent from the U.S. to Europe is the same as assuming every degree from every college in the U.S. is equivalent, or every High School graduates students with equivalent ability. Not only do I think that's completely unsupported in anything you've presented, I think it's very unlikely to be true. > You don't fix strengths. You fix failures. Do you think it's impossible to accidentally reduce or eliminate a strength on accident? I didn't think I was being obtuse, but I'll spell it out again: What if the thing you think is a weakness is actually a strength in other ways that you aren't considering, and by changing it you may make things worse rather than better? Europe is not the U.S. What works there may not work the same here, as much as you seem to think you can just plug it into place. Maybe it would though. Have you even considered these aspects, or is your actual interest so shallow that you're only interested in saying that it would be better and ignoring any of the deeper aspects of what you're proposing? All that's really happening here is you making blanket assertions, me questioning them and asking for the bare minimum of actual thought and effort to support the in some evidenced way, and you making more assertions without evidence to try to support yourself. If you really truly believe what you're saying, don't you owe it to yourself to actually put a little effort into learning the actual details what you so vehemently assert? The questions I have, which you've been plainly unable to answer with any real data (or anything other than repeating yourself, really), are not hard, in my opinion. There what anyone that actually wanted a change and cared about the outcome would want to know.