5 ms·

Apparently a hello world is like 90MB. https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368

by pier25 3y ago

bryancoxwell 3y ago
Well, I do appreciate the transparency to be honest.
VWWHFSfQ 3y ago
I'm curious why that would be so big. Even my python3.10 binary + /usr/lib/python3.10 is only 30MB
- matlin 3y ago
  It bundles an entire JS engine with it. I think JSC in Bun's case. V8 for Deno and Node.
  - ricardobeat 3y ago
    The engine is not the largest part of it. just-js, which is pretty close to barebones V8, sits at ~20MB. JSC is supposed to be about 4MB, Hermes is 2-3MB. The largest parts I think are ICU and the built-in libraries.
    - billywhizz 3y ago
      yes. author of just-js here. a minimal build of a v8 based runtime weighs in around 23-25 MB on modern linux using latest v8. this gets bigger all the time, due to new functionality being added to JS/V8 and no easy way to decide what parts of JS to include. when i started working on just-js ~3.5 years ago i'm pretty sure it was only 15MB or so - can verify when i have time.
      - billywhizz 3y ago
        i just tried recompiling v0.0.2 (https://github.com/just-js/just/releases/tag/0.0.2 https://github.com/just-js/just/releases/tag/0.0.2) of just-js and comparing it to current. for the completely static build on ubuntu 22.04 i see following: 0.0.2 (v8 v8.4.371.18) - file size: 15.2 MB, startup RSS: 8.4 MB current (v8 v10.6.194.9) - file size: 19.5 MB, startup RSS: 12.3 MB so, that's roughly 30% binary size increase and 50% greater startup memory usage in 2.5 years. =/
leeoniya 3y ago
ICU :( https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues/2541 https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues/2541 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1616597667408404481 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1616597667408404481
- edflsafoiewq 3y ago
  QuickJS has a custom unicode library for this reason.
  - mananaysiempre 3y ago
    It’s slow as molasses in some parts though. (Deliberately, it’s a trade-off.) The Unicode part of ICU shouldn’t be that large, however (on the order of hundreds of kilobytes), it’s the locale data that’s big[1]. Does Bun implement ECMA-402 internationalization? Even without locales, one of the largest parts of ICU data is normalization and casing tables, which I think bare ECMAScript does not require. (It does mean bare ECMAScript cannot adequately process Unicode text, but meh, you get what you pay for.) [1] https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/icu_data/buildtool.html#file-slicing-coarse-grained-features https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/icu_data/buildto...
    - sjrd 3y ago
      Bare ECMAScript does require normalization [1] and case conversions (for the root locale only) [2]. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/normalize https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe... [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/toLowerCase https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...
      - mananaysiempre 3y ago
        Ah, I see, String.prototype.normalize() is in ES6. I remembered that Duktape (which has its own, even slower Unicode library) can’t do it[1], but then it doesn’t try for ES6 either. [1] https://github.com/svaarala/duktape/issues/1718 https://github.com/svaarala/duktape/issues/1718
paulddraper 3y ago
IIRC the latest Linux Node.js binary is over 70MB. Though Bun doesn't use Node.js I believe, there's a reference (At least it's not JVM Hotspot...)
- U1F984 3y ago
  A Java Runtime for Hello world is just 32 MB: https://adoptium.net/blog/2021/10/jlink-to-produce-own-runtime/ https://adoptium.net/blog/2021/10/jlink-to-produce-own-runti...
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    A full Java runtime is 95MB. (Smaller than the JDK size of 312MB.) > The jlinked runtime using the above command is about 95Mb. Simple programs -- like Hello World -- can indeed exclude certain parts of the JRE using jdeps, for a smaller size.
  - mike_hearn 3y ago
    You can actually get it smaller if you compile your own JDK and look at the compressed size. I got it down to 7mb at one point.
datavirtue 3y ago
That small!?
pseudosavant 3y ago
Is 90MB really that big when compared against the other types of binaries that would get deployed: containers and VM images? How big is the platform (k8s, docker, etc) you need installed to run your app? Probably more than 90MB.
- pier25 3y ago
  Depends. Doesn't seem much for a server but if you want to distribute an executable to your users then 90MB seems huge. IIRC a hello world Go binary is like 2MB.
  - metaltyphoon 3y ago
    Yeah but no one distributes hello world.
    - georgyo 3y ago
      If the base line is 90MB, then it only goes up from there.
      - patrickthebold 3y ago
        The question is "how fast". If bun executables are always 45x go's that's a problem. If they are always 98mb more than go's, then it's less of a problem as the size grows.
      - kaba0 3y ago
        A car that can transport 7 people is not 3.5x heavier than a car that can only have place for two — the initial size is much bigger, additional js code won’t bloat it further that much.
- keyle 3y ago
  yeah 90MB for a hello world is big. Approximately 2,700 times bigger than it could be.
s17n 3y ago
For most use cases, that doesn’t matter.
stephc_int13 3y ago
The storage part is not a big deal, it does not look nice but this is simply a bit disgusting. The worrying part is that this is mostly code, not dead junk simply occupying space, this is part of the code path, filling the caches, or should I say trashing the caches…

Apparently a hello world is like 90MB. https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368

by pier25 3y ago

Apparently a hello world is like 90MB. https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1657765876085690368

bryancoxwell 3y ago

Well, I do appreciate the transparency to be honest.

VWWHFSfQ 3y ago

I'm curious why that would be so big. Even my python3.10 binary + /usr/lib/python3.10 is only 30MB

matlin 3y ago
It bundles an entire JS engine with it. I think JSC in Bun's case. V8 for Deno and Node.
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  The engine is not the largest part of it. just-js, which is pretty close to barebones V8, sits at ~20MB. JSC is supposed to be about 4MB, Hermes is 2-3MB. The largest parts I think are ICU and the built-in libraries.
  - billywhizz 3y ago
    yes. author of just-js here. a minimal build of a v8 based runtime weighs in around 23-25 MB on modern linux using latest v8. this gets bigger all the time, due to new functionality being added to JS/V8 and no easy way to decide what parts of JS to include. when i started working on just-js ~3.5 years ago i'm pretty sure it was only 15MB or so - can verify when i have time.
    - billywhizz 3y ago
      i just tried recompiling v0.0.2 (https://github.com/just-js/just/releases/tag/0.0.2 https://github.com/just-js/just/releases/tag/0.0.2) of just-js and comparing it to current. for the completely static build on ubuntu 22.04 i see following: 0.0.2 (v8 v8.4.371.18) - file size: 15.2 MB, startup RSS: 8.4 MB current (v8 v10.6.194.9) - file size: 19.5 MB, startup RSS: 12.3 MB so, that's roughly 30% binary size increase and 50% greater startup memory usage in 2.5 years. =/

leeoniya 3y ago

ICU :( https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues/2541 https://github.com/oven-sh/bun/issues/2541 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1616597667408404481 https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1616597667408404481

edflsafoiewq 3y ago
QuickJS has a custom unicode library for this reason.
- mananaysiempre 3y ago
  It’s slow as molasses in some parts though. (Deliberately, it’s a trade-off.) The Unicode part of ICU shouldn’t be that large, however (on the order of hundreds of kilobytes), it’s the locale data that’s big[1]. Does Bun implement ECMA-402 internationalization? Even without locales, one of the largest parts of ICU data is normalization and casing tables, which I think bare ECMAScript does not require. (It does mean bare ECMAScript cannot adequately process Unicode text, but meh, you get what you pay for.) [1] https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/icu_data/buildtool.html#file-slicing-coarse-grained-features https://unicode-org.github.io/icu/userguide/icu_data/buildto...
  - sjrd 3y ago
    Bare ECMAScript does require normalization [1] and case conversions (for the root locale only) [2]. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/normalize https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe... [2] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/String/toLowerCase https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...
    - mananaysiempre 3y ago
      Ah, I see, String.prototype.normalize() is in ES6. I remembered that Duktape (which has its own, even slower Unicode library) can’t do it[1], but then it doesn’t try for ES6 either. [1] https://github.com/svaarala/duktape/issues/1718 https://github.com/svaarala/duktape/issues/1718

paulddraper 3y ago

IIRC the latest Linux Node.js binary is over 70MB. Though Bun doesn't use Node.js I believe, there's a reference (At least it's not JVM Hotspot...)

U1F984 3y ago
A Java Runtime for Hello world is just 32 MB: https://adoptium.net/blog/2021/10/jlink-to-produce-own-runtime/ https://adoptium.net/blog/2021/10/jlink-to-produce-own-runti...
- paulddraper 3y ago
  A full Java runtime is 95MB. (Smaller than the JDK size of 312MB.) > The jlinked runtime using the above command is about 95Mb. Simple programs -- like Hello World -- can indeed exclude certain parts of the JRE using jdeps, for a smaller size.
- mike_hearn 3y ago
  You can actually get it smaller if you compile your own JDK and look at the compressed size. I got it down to 7mb at one point.

datavirtue 3y ago

That small!?

pseudosavant 3y ago

Is 90MB really that big when compared against the other types of binaries that would get deployed: containers and VM images? How big is the platform (k8s, docker, etc) you need installed to run your app? Probably more than 90MB.

pier25 3y ago
Depends. Doesn't seem much for a server but if you want to distribute an executable to your users then 90MB seems huge. IIRC a hello world Go binary is like 2MB.
- metaltyphoon 3y ago
  Yeah but no one distributes hello world.
  - georgyo 3y ago
    If the base line is 90MB, then it only goes up from there.
    - patrickthebold 3y ago
      The question is "how fast". If bun executables are always 45x go's that's a problem. If they are always 98mb more than go's, then it's less of a problem as the size grows.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      A car that can transport 7 people is not 3.5x heavier than a car that can only have place for two — the initial size is much bigger, additional js code won’t bloat it further that much.
keyle 3y ago
yeah 90MB for a hello world is big. Approximately 2,700 times bigger than it could be.

s17n 3y ago

For most use cases, that doesn’t matter.

stephc_int13 3y ago

The storage part is not a big deal, it does not look nice but this is simply a bit disgusting. The worrying part is that this is mostly code, not dead junk simply occupying space, this is part of the code path, filling the caches, or should I say trashing the caches…