4 ms·

I used to be a convinced pro-European but for me it's getting harder and harder to _not_ believe in some kind of plot for assuming total control over their citi

I used to be a convinced pro-European but for me it's getting harder and harder to _not_ believe in some kind of plot for assuming total control over their citizens. Each and every EU regulation concerning "things digital" is pointing to a direction where "freedom" is just an empty buzzword used for virtue signalling against states like China. I am getting seriously concerned about things (not that i haven't been before).

bjoli 3y ago
[flagged]
- antiloper 3y ago
  It is not "exclusively the right". The social democrats strongly voted in favour of chatcontrol. If there's anything all EU bureaucrats are agreeing on, it's that they need more power. https://mepwatch.eu/9/vote.html?v=134463 https://mepwatch.eu/9/vote.html?v=134463
  - bjoli 3y ago
    European social democracy hasn't been left in some time apart for maybe in words. Regarding EU votes it is fun to always see the same division: people from countries where there is still a left phalanx of the social democratic party always seem to have people (who are always the same) voting with GUE/NGL.
Yujf 3y ago
It is a difficult thing. Because of it's size, the EU often feels unnaccountable to me. Also the news does not focus on who votes for what or what their ideas in the EU are but only focusses on national level. And then the EU makes decisions that I dissagree with and it leaves a bad taste. On the other hand, I believe the EU has so much potential and is a huge benefit overall
- soco 3y ago
  I would say it is accountable buuuttt ssoooooo sssllooowwwwww that in the end it almost feels unaccountable, and that's a pity. I don't know though how to bring together so many directions and so many (levels of) legislators in a quicker manner... and let's face it, the EU voters aren't smarter or better informed than in other places.
mrtksn 3y ago
Wasn't it proven that the US does this since a long time and whistleblowers lives ruined? Obama even has given an apologetic speech for it? I'm not supporting this but if it will happen I would prefer it happening openly within a legal framework. I don't get the appeal for it being done by secret services instead of civil services. I guess it's about different relationship with the governments. Yesterday I saw a tweet from Paul Graham calling European AI startups to pre-emptively move to the US because of some EU regulation draft, today top topics here are about OpenAI speaking with the US government trying to scare them into requiring licensing to work on AI. Maybe the contrast between US/EU is not as stark as the narrative makes it appear.
- nforgerit 3y ago
  Yeah I was always thinking the same. They must be jealous about the enormous surveillance power that accumulated in the US for over 2 decades. Thing is: If the strategy is to have total surveillance based on an open legal framework then they should actively market it as that. I _might_ even agree with that. But given they're BSing us with "protect the children" I cannot help but see them as bad actors doing stupid/evil sh*t.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    [dead]
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    I agree with the point about the hypocrisy around all these things. It just fuels straight into the distrust machine. But I am not sure whether it is about jealousy of the US as such, but perhaps more about alleged or real fears about the domestic instability of the US, its commitment to Europe, and the shifting landscape in the great power politics game. Therefore, there are already open proposals to create a "European CIA": https://ksr.hkspublications.org/2023/04/06/if-you-want-peace-prepare-for-war-5-steps-toward-building-new-european-capacities-in-the-age-of-economic-and-political-instability/ https://ksr.hkspublications.org/2023/04/06/if-you-want-peace...
throw0101c 3y ago
> I used to be a convinced pro-European but for me it's getting harder and harder to _not_ believe in some kind of plot for assuming total control over their citizens. The EU is just catching up to the US: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A
- nforgerit 3y ago
  You mean catching up to government paranoia initiated by 9/11 which led to 2 unnecessary wars, never seen before government surveillance and destabilization of the middle east. Great job, let's do the same!
  - hulitu 3y ago
    It was not initiated by 9/11. 9/11 was just an excuse to extend surveillance.
raxxorraxor 3y ago
It isn't a plot, it is a bureaucracy. And old and a scared one. I too went from pro-European to being mostly critical of it. That was years ago though. Some parts do good work, but these attempts are just overreaching. The EU is no federation and it shouldn't be one. It would be governed by people like this that have basically no accountability. You can argue that it is just the governments of member states, but that doesn't make it any better. The vast majority are not accountable to you in any case. Of course the EU has a democratic deficit. Although even wikipedia articles about that are already full of propaganda. Best solution to the current dilemma is to put up technical realities that make such attempts unfeasible.

bjoli 3y ago

[flagged]

antiloper 3y ago
It is not "exclusively the right". The social democrats strongly voted in favour of chatcontrol. If there's anything all EU bureaucrats are agreeing on, it's that they need more power. https://mepwatch.eu/9/vote.html?v=134463 https://mepwatch.eu/9/vote.html?v=134463
- bjoli 3y ago
  European social democracy hasn't been left in some time apart for maybe in words. Regarding EU votes it is fun to always see the same division: people from countries where there is still a left phalanx of the social democratic party always seem to have people (who are always the same) voting with GUE/NGL.

Yujf 3y ago

It is a difficult thing. Because of it's size, the EU often feels unnaccountable to me. Also the news does not focus on who votes for what or what their ideas in the EU are but only focusses on national level. And then the EU makes decisions that I dissagree with and it leaves a bad taste. On the other hand, I believe the EU has so much potential and is a huge benefit overall

soco 3y ago
I would say it is accountable buuuttt ssoooooo sssllooowwwwww that in the end it almost feels unaccountable, and that's a pity. I don't know though how to bring together so many directions and so many (levels of) legislators in a quicker manner... and let's face it, the EU voters aren't smarter or better informed than in other places.

mrtksn 3y ago

Wasn't it proven that the US does this since a long time and whistleblowers lives ruined? Obama even has given an apologetic speech for it? I'm not supporting this but if it will happen I would prefer it happening openly within a legal framework. I don't get the appeal for it being done by secret services instead of civil services. I guess it's about different relationship with the governments. Yesterday I saw a tweet from Paul Graham calling European AI startups to pre-emptively move to the US because of some EU regulation draft, today top topics here are about OpenAI speaking with the US government trying to scare them into requiring licensing to work on AI. Maybe the contrast between US/EU is not as stark as the narrative makes it appear.

nforgerit 3y ago
Yeah I was always thinking the same. They must be jealous about the enormous surveillance power that accumulated in the US for over 2 decades. Thing is: If the strategy is to have total surveillance based on an open legal framework then they should actively market it as that. I _might_ even agree with that. But given they're BSing us with "protect the children" I cannot help but see them as bad actors doing stupid/evil sh*t.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  [dead]
- jruohonen 3y ago
  I agree with the point about the hypocrisy around all these things. It just fuels straight into the distrust machine. But I am not sure whether it is about jealousy of the US as such, but perhaps more about alleged or real fears about the domestic instability of the US, its commitment to Europe, and the shifting landscape in the great power politics game. Therefore, there are already open proposals to create a "European CIA": https://ksr.hkspublications.org/2023/04/06/if-you-want-peace-prepare-for-war-5-steps-toward-building-new-european-capacities-in-the-age-of-economic-and-political-instability/ https://ksr.hkspublications.org/2023/04/06/if-you-want-peace...

throw0101c 3y ago

> I used to be a convinced pro-European but for me it's getting harder and harder to _not_ believe in some kind of plot for assuming total control over their citizens. The EU is just catching up to the US: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A

nforgerit 3y ago
You mean catching up to government paranoia initiated by 9/11 which led to 2 unnecessary wars, never seen before government surveillance and destabilization of the middle east. Great job, let's do the same!
- hulitu 3y ago
  It was not initiated by 9/11. 9/11 was just an excuse to extend surveillance.

raxxorraxor 3y ago

It isn't a plot, it is a bureaucracy. And old and a scared one. I too went from pro-European to being mostly critical of it. That was years ago though. Some parts do good work, but these attempts are just overreaching. The EU is no federation and it shouldn't be one. It would be governed by people like this that have basically no accountability. You can argue that it is just the governments of member states, but that doesn't make it any better. The vast majority are not accountable to you in any case. Of course the EU has a democratic deficit. Although even wikipedia articles about that are already full of propaganda. Best solution to the current dilemma is to put up technical realities that make such attempts unfeasible.