5 ms·

> That sounds dystopian to me already (maybe because I'm not in the US? Or haven't spend much time at BigCorp? But is that really the default minimum these days

> That sounds dystopian to me already (maybe because I'm not in the US? Or haven't spend much time at BigCorp? But is that really the default minimum these days?) It's not the norm for white collar professional jobs, no. On the other hand, some blue collar jobs have a long history of detailed tracking. Clocking in when you arrive, maybe with biometrics, and clocking out when you leave. A call centre worker might find their employer monitors the number of calls they take, the time they spend on each call, records the contents of the call, and surveys the caller for their feedback.

AuthorizedCust 3y ago
That makes sense for task-oriented work regardless of collar color.
- conductr 3y ago
  This. Most bank employees are line workers in a data processing factory.
NoGravitas 3y ago
Right — "dystopian" is when white collar workers and professionals start getting treated like blue collar workers, or when people in the imperial core start getting treated like colonized people.
- lionkor 3y ago
  I think dystopian is when you track workers to a degree that invades their privacy. For example, if you recorded personal conversations people have on break. This is effectively what happens if you record all audio and video, and possibly the screen, of a work from home device. Not sure blue collar workers have been surveiled using hidden microphones and other such devices, say, 20-30 years ago. If you are tracking time by "how much time the employee spends in the building" then yes, you need to check when they come and go. You dont need to do this in jobs where performance is very obvious based on commits and similar metrics, as compared to jobs where possibly your attendance is your job (i.e. you dont produce anything, by "just" protecting something, or surveiling something, etc). There is a reasonable degree of employee surveilance, such that you can make sure someone does their job. Most of the stuff in the article absoutely goes beyond that. I dont think this has ever been about poor vs rich, imperial core vs colony (yikes), or blue collar vs white collar. Its simply that white collar workers may have more ways to see theyre being surveiled (i.e. webcam being on). White collar workers are IMO more likely to be in a position where they know that their livelihood is not at risk by simply speaking out about being surveiled to this degree.
- pydry 3y ago
  Dystopian is when leaders exert a frightening level of control and surveillance over ordinary people and it becomes normalized to the extent that you're told that you should shrug it off because "somebody else out there has it worse".
  - NoGravitas 3y ago
    Literally the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying people shrug off what's happening to other people because they don't think it will happen to them, while in fact, what's happening to other people is a good preview of what's coming for you.
- runamok 3y ago
  When I hear the phrase "wage theft" I think of all the money stolen from workers not the alleged hours workers are not perfectly productive. People have continued to become more productive over the last 40+ years but have not reaped the rewards of that.
Workaccount2 3y ago
Working a job where I moved from the blue collar grunts to the white collar office denizens, the difference even within the same company couldn't be starker. In lab you had to use a clock, only got a 30 min lunch, all work was tracked including time per unit, weekly/monthly quotas, manager breathing down your neck, strict PTO rules (if you have to leave for 1 hour, you must submit for it), station checks, gear/equipment checks, workmanship checks. Basically the pinnacle of "cog in the machine" work. Then once in the office, it basically became "you get a salary, do whatever you want as long as your work gets done". Hell it's not uncommon for me to go a week without even talking to my boss. I will say though, working in the lab as a "cog", when you clock out you are done, and when you take off, others pick up your load. In the office you end up taking work home with you and taking off means having to work extra to get ahead. I kind of miss being able to wake up and say "I don't want to go to work day" and just call it in.
- jimmydddd 3y ago
  Reminds me of when I used to work as an automation engineer at factories. We used to have to work late into the night during new process line installations. One time one of the assembly line workers who was assigned to help us out told me he felt sorry for me. When I asked why, he said no matter how the project was going, he was punching out at 3PM, was going to play a round of golf, have dinner, and not give work a second thought until the morning. In contrast, I was going to be there all night.
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    > When I asked why, he said no matter how the project was going, he was punching out at 3PM, was going to play a round of golf, have dinner, and not give work a second thought until the morning. In contrast, I was going to be there all night. He sounds like someone who doesn't actually enjoy their job.
    - akudha 3y ago
      Most people don’t particularly “enjoy” their jobs. They are there for a paycheck
mountainofdeath 3y ago
One of the major focus areas of the last 100 years or so of management theory is row to reduce bespoke professional white-collar roles where judgement is involved to assembly-line workers. The thinking is, if you can't force the job to become rote, then you can at least apply a forcing function to keep them in line. It's well known that even famous companies Meta, Google and Amazon track various forms of SLOC-related metrics, tickets closed, etc of their SWE. It's usually left to the managers discretion to use it, but its is there and is used often as a coarse measure of productivity.
carimura 3y ago
i sold software on cell phones early in my career and it was quite typical for the average small business to track its employees (say repairmen, HVAC people, gardeners, etc) using geofencing to alert if they went to bars, home, etc.
lovich 3y ago
Hell, last time I worked in call centers they were tracking how much time you spent shitting, and that was 10 years ago. And to be clear I don’t mean how much time was spent on breaks, I mean they literally discussed the distinction between 2 minute breaks to the bathroom and longer and asked individual employees if they really were using the bathroom.
- NoGravitas 3y ago
  They were definitely doing that when I worked in a call center in the mid-90s.

AuthorizedCust 3y ago

That makes sense for task-oriented work regardless of collar color.

conductr 3y ago
This. Most bank employees are line workers in a data processing factory.

NoGravitas 3y ago

Right — "dystopian" is when white collar workers and professionals start getting treated like blue collar workers, or when people in the imperial core start getting treated like colonized people.

lionkor 3y ago
I think dystopian is when you track workers to a degree that invades their privacy. For example, if you recorded personal conversations people have on break. This is effectively what happens if you record all audio and video, and possibly the screen, of a work from home device. Not sure blue collar workers have been surveiled using hidden microphones and other such devices, say, 20-30 years ago. If you are tracking time by "how much time the employee spends in the building" then yes, you need to check when they come and go. You dont need to do this in jobs where performance is very obvious based on commits and similar metrics, as compared to jobs where possibly your attendance is your job (i.e. you dont produce anything, by "just" protecting something, or surveiling something, etc). There is a reasonable degree of employee surveilance, such that you can make sure someone does their job. Most of the stuff in the article absoutely goes beyond that. I dont think this has ever been about poor vs rich, imperial core vs colony (yikes), or blue collar vs white collar. Its simply that white collar workers may have more ways to see theyre being surveiled (i.e. webcam being on). White collar workers are IMO more likely to be in a position where they know that their livelihood is not at risk by simply speaking out about being surveiled to this degree.
pydry 3y ago
Dystopian is when leaders exert a frightening level of control and surveillance over ordinary people and it becomes normalized to the extent that you're told that you should shrug it off because "somebody else out there has it worse".
- NoGravitas 3y ago
  Literally the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying people shrug off what's happening to other people because they don't think it will happen to them, while in fact, what's happening to other people is a good preview of what's coming for you.
runamok 3y ago
When I hear the phrase "wage theft" I think of all the money stolen from workers not the alleged hours workers are not perfectly productive. People have continued to become more productive over the last 40+ years but have not reaped the rewards of that.

Workaccount2 3y ago

Working a job where I moved from the blue collar grunts to the white collar office denizens, the difference even within the same company couldn't be starker. In lab you had to use a clock, only got a 30 min lunch, all work was tracked including time per unit, weekly/monthly quotas, manager breathing down your neck, strict PTO rules (if you have to leave for 1 hour, you must submit for it), station checks, gear/equipment checks, workmanship checks. Basically the pinnacle of "cog in the machine" work. Then once in the office, it basically became "you get a salary, do whatever you want as long as your work gets done". Hell it's not uncommon for me to go a week without even talking to my boss. I will say though, working in the lab as a "cog", when you clock out you are done, and when you take off, others pick up your load. In the office you end up taking work home with you and taking off means having to work extra to get ahead. I kind of miss being able to wake up and say "I don't want to go to work day" and just call it in.

jimmydddd 3y ago
Reminds me of when I used to work as an automation engineer at factories. We used to have to work late into the night during new process line installations. One time one of the assembly line workers who was assigned to help us out told me he felt sorry for me. When I asked why, he said no matter how the project was going, he was punching out at 3PM, was going to play a round of golf, have dinner, and not give work a second thought until the morning. In contrast, I was going to be there all night.
- DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
  > When I asked why, he said no matter how the project was going, he was punching out at 3PM, was going to play a round of golf, have dinner, and not give work a second thought until the morning. In contrast, I was going to be there all night. He sounds like someone who doesn't actually enjoy their job.
  - akudha 3y ago
    Most people don’t particularly “enjoy” their jobs. They are there for a paycheck

mountainofdeath 3y ago

One of the major focus areas of the last 100 years or so of management theory is row to reduce bespoke professional white-collar roles where judgement is involved to assembly-line workers. The thinking is, if you can't force the job to become rote, then you can at least apply a forcing function to keep them in line. It's well known that even famous companies Meta, Google and Amazon track various forms of SLOC-related metrics, tickets closed, etc of their SWE. It's usually left to the managers discretion to use it, but its is there and is used often as a coarse measure of productivity.

carimura 3y ago

i sold software on cell phones early in my career and it was quite typical for the average small business to track its employees (say repairmen, HVAC people, gardeners, etc) using geofencing to alert if they went to bars, home, etc.

lovich 3y ago

Hell, last time I worked in call centers they were tracking how much time you spent shitting, and that was 10 years ago. And to be clear I don’t mean how much time was spent on breaks, I mean they literally discussed the distinction between 2 minute breaks to the bathroom and longer and asked individual employees if they really were using the bathroom.

NoGravitas 3y ago
They were definitely doing that when I worked in a call center in the mid-90s.