6 ms·

What about the employer’s side of the story though? The one that’s on the other side of the economic engine. You expect to be paid in full and in exactly the r

What about the employer’s side of the story though? The one that’s on the other side of the economic engine. You expect to be paid in full and in exactly the right amount at the right time, but if we so much as superficially check you are actually present it is dystopian? I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate. You being “present” during office hours is not up for debate and easy to check. We all know you are not “making up for it” in the evenings. You are watching netflix and eating hot dogs while sending some superficial emails and notes to give off the impression you are working. It’s not some small marginal group taking advantage every way they can every chance they get, it’s nearly everyone I know. It’s insane. But they expect to be paid in full. I am not completely opposed to introducing some metrics to track your value. I agree time “in seat” is not the best metric, but it’s better than nothing.

frumper 3y ago
These people taking advantage of it at home(nearly everyone) are very likely doing the same thing in office. What the heck is wrong with having Netflix on and eating a hot dog while you work? You didn’t mention they didn’t accomplish what they needed to.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Companies have strong incentives to mix and match two paradigms of employment/compensation, such that they get the best of both, and their employees suffer the worst of both. In one paradigm, people are paid per productivity unit. In the other, people are paid a set amount per time period but are required to perform above some minimum threshold. They tend towards the latter paradigm outside of specialized scenarios... so the hope is that someone performs well above the minimum and perhaps even at some extraordinary level in this second paradigm. But the pay does not increase for the employee if he or she does overperform. However, the minimum performance is rarely spelled out, and can (and does) increase without employees being aware that this has happened. Regardless though, the pressure is to demand that employees work in a way that would only make sense if they were paid-per-unit. That is to say, constantly, and with the minimum amount of rest that they must have without being injured or dying of exhaustion (maybe without even that!). This is bad enough if your work is pulling onions out of the ground by hand (a job that I remember reading is sometimes paid-per-unit). It is far worse for someone salaried, working something semi-creative. I don't know that the drugs exist that might make me able to focus only on work for 8 or 9 hours at a stretch, day-in and day-out. I have my good days when I look up and its 5pm, and I never let go of a problem the entire time. And then there are the mornings where I flounder about, not even sure where to start. Bonuses for those who can do it seem rare to non-existent. So those that can drive themselves that way are often angling for promotion, sometimes for positions that aren't even available. They want the productivity from A, but to pay the wages of B. I don't think this is some conspiracy... they don't even realize they're doing this, when they do it. If they were that self-aware, they might start to wonder what happens when exhaust the supply of what is a rare and difficult-to-acquire resource. They can't make more of it. And once it's used up and gone, business will eventually take a big hit. But, as un-self-aware as they are, and given the timetables involved (it can take years for the consequences to rear their heads), they'll chalk it up irrationally in their heads as that things beyond their control changed to make the business unviable. Supposing of course, that any of the original management is still there to worry. One might think it would almost be better to be managed by supervillains than by buffoons. So, to answer your question... the problem with Netflix and hot dog eating is that if an employee is doing that, then they aren't performing at the maximum theoretical output. They're not constantly working at that level.
  - frumper 3y ago
    Of course they're not performing at their theoretical maximum output. They aren't doing that in office either.
deelly 3y ago
> What about the employer’s side of the story though? > .... > I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate. If you don't know definition of "results", then how can you be sure that making people tired will somehow achieve the results? In the end do you need "results" from work or do you just want to make people maximally tired?
- pydry 3y ago
  I think they just want control and power. Even more than they want profit.
- deltree7 3y ago
  Results can't be measured in knowledge work
tqi 3y ago
This is looking for lost keys under a lamppost because that's where the light is.
sharemywin 3y ago
Problem is the in US if your on Salary you can't have a time card. And if your hourly you have to be paid for the hours.
- abduhl 3y ago
  What do you mean you can’t have a time card? You aren’t paid based on it usually, but you most certainly can track your hours. This is standard in any company that bills out their employees’ services hourly (lawyers, consultants, engineers, doctors). In fact, some salaried employees get overtime by law or by company policy. How could this be paid if time wasn’t tracked?
ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago
This is how, in-office, you get employees showing up at 6am to drink coffee and chat. It is also how, at home, you get employees to install a mouse-wiggling script and never close their laptop. Your problem is unproductive employees - the ones who are going to get you business results are not going to appreciate being spied on and nickel-and-dimed for their time, and the ones who are not going to do so will not be suddenly transformed by you checking how long their laptop is open for. And it just reeks of control freak. Also, I always like to flip it around. What do managers even do? Those layabouts, I bet they're watching netflix and eating hot dogs while sending superficial emails all day while I'm here coding and actually producing value. "I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate" "It’s not some small marginal group taking advantage every way they can every chance they get, it’s nearly everyone I know." You might be running a bad business.
- boring_twenties 3y ago
  > You might be running a bad business. JPM just reported a $38 billion profit in Q1 and 18% ROE ... I think they are doing just fine, but maybe you should email them and offer some advice?
  - ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago
    The person I replied to presumably does not work for JPM
- NoGravitas 3y ago
  It's all part of the "bullshit jobs" phenomenon.
etempleton 3y ago
As a manager I have never wanted this kind of intel. It is meaningless to me. Are deadlines being hit? What is the work quality? Are they responsive to email? If all of that is happening who cares if they are in their seat. This isn’t daycare and I am not a babysitter. If I feel like I have to constantly check on an employee to make sure they are working it is probably a sign they aren’t going to last long.
zb1plus 3y ago
"Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." I do not think you can quantitatively assess the value a single person brings to an organization. Even so-called "cost centers" enable the revenue generating aspects of the organization. These metrics also fail to account for specialized subject matter experts who may be only needed in very unique situations but otherwise can have lots of downtime. Moreover, organizations waste millions of dollars a year on vanity projects and resume driven development by middle management, yet I don't see machine learning being used to identify when competing divisions or factions of managers are wasting time and resources on trying to elevate themselves and their own ideas. If companies legitimately want to understand the value a person brings to an organization, they to have an empathetic, servent-leader manager who takes the time to understand the work each person does within the organization through observation and conversation. These poorly thought through metrics do more harm than good, you'll wind up with crappy products or services as employees focus on gaming metrics as opposed to actually delivering value.
yarg 3y ago
As a developer my job was less the typing and more the thinking about what I was going to write. I didn't stop thinking about the problems I was solving, even when I went to sleep. I frequently woke up having solved bugs that I hadn't even realised existed. Each day, the entire trip to work I contemplated what it was that I was going to do and the trip back what it was I had yet to complete. And I sure as shit didn't get paid for that.
- SanderNL 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - yarg 3y ago
    > This is bullshit and you know it. Assume good faith. > As a developer my job was less the typing and more the thinking about what I was going to write. Where was it exactly that I stated that the bulk of my work was done in my sleep? I never said that - but rather stated that the majority of work was contemplation rather than typing. However, at least once a week I woke with a solution to something - just because your brain doesn't function that way on a regular basis does not mean that no-one else's does (or perhaps you need to think harder?). My point was, it didn't really matter what time I actually arrived at my desk, the actual contemplation of the issue was happening regardless of where I was. So, for at least two hours a day outside of the office I was continuing to do the most important part of my job. > Also good luck answering the phone at night and while “thinking what to do”. What the hell are you on about?
  - dang 3y ago
    Please don't cross into name-calling or personal attack on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
brenns10 3y ago
> What about the employer’s side of the story though? The one that’s on the other side of the economic engine. Also the side of the "economic engine" that historically cheerfully exploited workers until the labor movement enacted basic protections. IMO employers (in general) are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to workers' rights. > I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate. Yeah my job is difficult too, but I don't take shortcuts because it was "pretty difficult" to do things correctly. Seems like a bad example to set for your employees if you want them to be hard workers... > You being “present” during office hours is not up for debate and easy to check. It's also not part of my employment agreement! I'm salaried, I'm paid for getting the job done. Of course, part of "the job" is to be available during business hours in order to participate in meetings, off the cuff discussions, and of course I value that part too. But so long as I communicate when I may be away from my keyboard for a bit, we're all able to manage this easily. > We all know you are not “making up for it” in the evenings. You are watching netflix and eating hot dogs while sending some superficial emails and notes to give off the impression you are working. This is such condescending arrogance it almost doesn't merit a response. But rest assured, there are plenty of us who say they'll make something up in the evening, and they do it without hot dogs and Netflix. (Also, if somebody did their job functions successfully and efficiently while eating hot dogs and watching Netflix... who cares?) > It’s not some small marginal group taking advantage every way they can every chance they get, it’s nearly everyone I know. It’s insane. But they expect to be paid in full. I am not completely opposed to introducing some metrics to track your value. Obviously you should track the value of employees, but you track it by results, not by this garbage. If your management isn't able to detect freeloaders who aren't getting results: that's a problem with your management and business.
idontpost 3y ago
[dead]

frumper 3y ago

These people taking advantage of it at home(nearly everyone) are very likely doing the same thing in office. What the heck is wrong with having Netflix on and eating a hot dog while you work? You didn’t mention they didn’t accomplish what they needed to.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Companies have strong incentives to mix and match two paradigms of employment/compensation, such that they get the best of both, and their employees suffer the worst of both. In one paradigm, people are paid per productivity unit. In the other, people are paid a set amount per time period but are required to perform above some minimum threshold. They tend towards the latter paradigm outside of specialized scenarios... so the hope is that someone performs well above the minimum and perhaps even at some extraordinary level in this second paradigm. But the pay does not increase for the employee if he or she does overperform. However, the minimum performance is rarely spelled out, and can (and does) increase without employees being aware that this has happened. Regardless though, the pressure is to demand that employees work in a way that would only make sense if they were paid-per-unit. That is to say, constantly, and with the minimum amount of rest that they must have without being injured or dying of exhaustion (maybe without even that!). This is bad enough if your work is pulling onions out of the ground by hand (a job that I remember reading is sometimes paid-per-unit). It is far worse for someone salaried, working something semi-creative. I don't know that the drugs exist that might make me able to focus only on work for 8 or 9 hours at a stretch, day-in and day-out. I have my good days when I look up and its 5pm, and I never let go of a problem the entire time. And then there are the mornings where I flounder about, not even sure where to start. Bonuses for those who can do it seem rare to non-existent. So those that can drive themselves that way are often angling for promotion, sometimes for positions that aren't even available. They want the productivity from A, but to pay the wages of B. I don't think this is some conspiracy... they don't even realize they're doing this, when they do it. If they were that self-aware, they might start to wonder what happens when exhaust the supply of what is a rare and difficult-to-acquire resource. They can't make more of it. And once it's used up and gone, business will eventually take a big hit. But, as un-self-aware as they are, and given the timetables involved (it can take years for the consequences to rear their heads), they'll chalk it up irrationally in their heads as that things beyond their control changed to make the business unviable. Supposing of course, that any of the original management is still there to worry. One might think it would almost be better to be managed by supervillains than by buffoons. So, to answer your question... the problem with Netflix and hot dog eating is that if an employee is doing that, then they aren't performing at the maximum theoretical output. They're not constantly working at that level.
- frumper 3y ago
  Of course they're not performing at their theoretical maximum output. They aren't doing that in office either.

deelly 3y ago

> What about the employer’s side of the story though? > .... > I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate. If you don't know definition of "results", then how can you be sure that making people tired will somehow achieve the results? In the end do you need "results" from work or do you just want to make people maximally tired?

pydry 3y ago
I think they just want control and power. Even more than they want profit.
deltree7 3y ago
Results can't be measured in knowledge work

tqi 3y ago

This is looking for lost keys under a lamppost because that's where the light is.

sharemywin 3y ago

Problem is the in US if your on Salary you can't have a time card. And if your hourly you have to be paid for the hours.

abduhl 3y ago
What do you mean you can’t have a time card? You aren’t paid based on it usually, but you most certainly can track your hours. This is standard in any company that bills out their employees’ services hourly (lawyers, consultants, engineers, doctors). In fact, some salaried employees get overtime by law or by company policy. How could this be paid if time wasn’t tracked?

ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago

This is how, in-office, you get employees showing up at 6am to drink coffee and chat. It is also how, at home, you get employees to install a mouse-wiggling script and never close their laptop. Your problem is unproductive employees - the ones who are going to get you business results are not going to appreciate being spied on and nickel-and-dimed for their time, and the ones who are not going to do so will not be suddenly transformed by you checking how long their laptop is open for. And it just reeks of control freak. Also, I always like to flip it around. What do managers even do? Those layabouts, I bet they're watching netflix and eating hot dogs while sending superficial emails all day while I'm here coding and actually producing value. "I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate" "It’s not some small marginal group taking advantage every way they can every chance they get, it’s nearly everyone I know." You might be running a bad business.

boring_twenties 3y ago
> You might be running a bad business. JPM just reported a $38 billion profit in Q1 and 18% ROE ... I think they are doing just fine, but maybe you should email them and offer some advice?
- ye-olde-sysrq 3y ago
  The person I replied to presumably does not work for JPM
NoGravitas 3y ago
It's all part of the "bullshit jobs" phenomenon.

etempleton 3y ago

As a manager I have never wanted this kind of intel. It is meaningless to me. Are deadlines being hit? What is the work quality? Are they responsive to email? If all of that is happening who cares if they are in their seat. This isn’t daycare and I am not a babysitter. If I feel like I have to constantly check on an employee to make sure they are working it is probably a sign they aren’t going to last long.

zb1plus 3y ago

"Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." I do not think you can quantitatively assess the value a single person brings to an organization. Even so-called "cost centers" enable the revenue generating aspects of the organization. These metrics also fail to account for specialized subject matter experts who may be only needed in very unique situations but otherwise can have lots of downtime. Moreover, organizations waste millions of dollars a year on vanity projects and resume driven development by middle management, yet I don't see machine learning being used to identify when competing divisions or factions of managers are wasting time and resources on trying to elevate themselves and their own ideas. If companies legitimately want to understand the value a person brings to an organization, they to have an empathetic, servent-leader manager who takes the time to understand the work each person does within the organization through observation and conversation. These poorly thought through metrics do more harm than good, you'll wind up with crappy products or services as employees focus on gaming metrics as opposed to actually delivering value.

yarg 3y ago

As a developer my job was less the typing and more the thinking about what I was going to write. I didn't stop thinking about the problems I was solving, even when I went to sleep. I frequently woke up having solved bugs that I hadn't even realised existed. Each day, the entire trip to work I contemplated what it was that I was going to do and the trip back what it was I had yet to complete. And I sure as shit didn't get paid for that.

SanderNL 3y ago
[flagged]
- yarg 3y ago
  > This is bullshit and you know it. Assume good faith. > As a developer my job was less the typing and more the thinking about what I was going to write. Where was it exactly that I stated that the bulk of my work was done in my sleep? I never said that - but rather stated that the majority of work was contemplation rather than typing. However, at least once a week I woke with a solution to something - just because your brain doesn't function that way on a regular basis does not mean that no-one else's does (or perhaps you need to think harder?). My point was, it didn't really matter what time I actually arrived at my desk, the actual contemplation of the issue was happening regardless of where I was. So, for at least two hours a day outside of the office I was continuing to do the most important part of my job. > Also good luck answering the phone at night and while “thinking what to do”. What the hell are you on about?
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't cross into name-calling or personal attack on HN. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

brenns10 3y ago

> What about the employer’s side of the story though? The one that’s on the other side of the economic engine. Also the side of the "economic engine" that historically cheerfully exploited workers until the labor movement enacted basic protections. IMO employers (in general) are guilty until proven innocent when it comes to workers' rights. > I know checking “results” is what should be happening, but guess what? That’s actually pretty difficult and open to all kinds of debate. Yeah my job is difficult too, but I don't take shortcuts because it was "pretty difficult" to do things correctly. Seems like a bad example to set for your employees if you want them to be hard workers... > You being “present” during office hours is not up for debate and easy to check. It's also not part of my employment agreement! I'm salaried, I'm paid for getting the job done. Of course, part of "the job" is to be available during business hours in order to participate in meetings, off the cuff discussions, and of course I value that part too. But so long as I communicate when I may be away from my keyboard for a bit, we're all able to manage this easily. > We all know you are not “making up for it” in the evenings. You are watching netflix and eating hot dogs while sending some superficial emails and notes to give off the impression you are working. This is such condescending arrogance it almost doesn't merit a response. But rest assured, there are plenty of us who say they'll make something up in the evening, and they do it without hot dogs and Netflix. (Also, if somebody did their job functions successfully and efficiently while eating hot dogs and watching Netflix... who cares?) > It’s not some small marginal group taking advantage every way they can every chance they get, it’s nearly everyone I know. It’s insane. But they expect to be paid in full. I am not completely opposed to introducing some metrics to track your value. Obviously you should track the value of employees, but you track it by results, not by this garbage. If your management isn't able to detect freeloaders who aren't getting results: that's a problem with your management and business.

idontpost 3y ago

[dead]