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"Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution" Can you elaborate? I don't see how this is superior to leaving it fallow? I have a few acres fallow

"Pasture farming on marginal land is part of the solution" Can you elaborate? I don't see how this is superior to leaving it fallow? I have a few acres fallow and am right next to a quaint organic farm and I do see quite a few more bees in my tall grass and wildflowers than I do in their grazed land...

a_c 3y ago
Lands are not equal. They all have different conditions. Some land for example can't grow food but is good for grazing. Grazing, done correctly, is beneficial to the land too. E.g. grazing brings dungs to the land. The dungs give nutrients to both plants and insects. Stamping the land aerate the soil and exposes insect for birds, hence limiting pest. Birds spread seeds. Everything is in balance. Food is ultimately created from sunlight. Industrial farming, on the other hand, simplifying heavily, is converting fossil fuels into food.
- CalRobert 3y ago
  I don't understand how that shows human involvement in these landscapes is necessary.
danielheath 3y ago
Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.
- myshpa 3y ago
  Pag in Croatia too ... it's called "island of paski cheese" iirc ... it's mostly rocky desert with patches of grass and herds of islands and goats, but leave the island and suddenly the landscape is green and lush. "Historically, Pag had more forested areas than it does today. The island used to be covered with oak and pine forests, but due to centuries of human activity, including grazing, deforestation, and the collection of firewood, much of the original forest cover has been reduced. Over time, the vegetation has adapted to the island's specific conditions, such as strong winds and limited freshwater sources." The land is rocky to grow anything on exactly because of those lambs and goats. They don't give the land the change to reforest. We tend to underestimate the damage that has already been done before we came here.
  - myshpa 3y ago
    herds of sheep and goats, chance to reforest
  - danielheath 3y ago
    > The land is rocky to grow anything on exactly because of those lambs and goats. Are you suggesting that ruminants transport rocks to the site?
    - myshpa 3y ago
      Ruminants deplete the vegetation on the land, leading to erosion caused by wind and water, which gradually erodes the top layer of soil, leaving behind only large rocks.
      - danielheath 3y ago
        There are ruminants in plenty of other places without the land becoming inhospitable to most plants, though, so that's not a sufficient explanation (although I can clearly see how it contributes).
        myshpa 3y ago
        My previous comment: "including grazing, deforestation, and the collection of firewood" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316721412_Blame_it_on_the_goats_Desertification_in_the_Near_East_during_the_Holocene https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316721412_Blame_it_... "The authors analyze archaeological and ecological evidence to understand the relationship between human populations, goat herding, and land degradation. They argue that the widespread adoption of goat herding practices played a significant role in the process of desertification. Goats are known to be browsers, preferring to consume a variety of vegetation, including shrubs and trees. This selective feeding behavior, combined with the increasing human population and expansion of agricultural practices, led to the overgrazing of vegetation and subsequent soil erosion. The paper highlights that the degradation of vegetation cover and loss of soil fertility had cascading effects on the ecosystem. Reduced vegetation cover resulted in increased exposure of soil to wind and water erosion, leading to the expansion of arid and desert regions. The loss of vegetation also had a detrimental impact on biodiversity, as many plant and animal species dependent on these ecosystems faced habitat destruction and population decline."
- CalRobert 3y ago
  And what would be there if we didn't have sheep and goats there?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- contingencies 3y ago
  Corn does well on rocky and steep terrain.
himinlomax 3y ago
Dairy is important for human nutrition because it has an excellent level of production of valuable proteins per acres and that can be done on marginal land that can't really be used for anything else anyway. You could get those proteins from soy, but that would have to be done on farm land, with fertilizer, irrigation and so on. How are those bees going to fare there? And that's assuming grazing is entirely hostile to bees, which it's arguably not that much considering how it doesn't require pesticides. You know, the thing that kills insects.
SuoDuanDao 3y ago
as always, it depends on practices. Here's a pretty good presentation on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z75A_JMBx4&t=783s&pp=ygUbY2F0dGxlIGNhcmJvbiBzZXF1ZXN0cmF0aW9u https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z75A_JMBx4&t=783s&pp=ygUbY2...

a_c 3y ago

Lands are not equal. They all have different conditions. Some land for example can't grow food but is good for grazing. Grazing, done correctly, is beneficial to the land too. E.g. grazing brings dungs to the land. The dungs give nutrients to both plants and insects. Stamping the land aerate the soil and exposes insect for birds, hence limiting pest. Birds spread seeds. Everything is in balance. Food is ultimately created from sunlight. Industrial farming, on the other hand, simplifying heavily, is converting fossil fuels into food.

CalRobert 3y ago
I don't understand how that shows human involvement in these landscapes is necessary.

danielheath 3y ago

Greece has lots of land that's either too steep for humans to walk on, or too rocky to grow anything but grass on, or both. As a result, traditional Greek cuisine has lots of lamb and goat meat.

myshpa 3y ago
Pag in Croatia too ... it's called "island of paski cheese" iirc ... it's mostly rocky desert with patches of grass and herds of islands and goats, but leave the island and suddenly the landscape is green and lush. "Historically, Pag had more forested areas than it does today. The island used to be covered with oak and pine forests, but due to centuries of human activity, including grazing, deforestation, and the collection of firewood, much of the original forest cover has been reduced. Over time, the vegetation has adapted to the island's specific conditions, such as strong winds and limited freshwater sources." The land is rocky to grow anything on exactly because of those lambs and goats. They don't give the land the change to reforest. We tend to underestimate the damage that has already been done before we came here.
- myshpa 3y ago
  herds of sheep and goats, chance to reforest
- danielheath 3y ago
  > The land is rocky to grow anything on exactly because of those lambs and goats. Are you suggesting that ruminants transport rocks to the site?
  - myshpa 3y ago
    Ruminants deplete the vegetation on the land, leading to erosion caused by wind and water, which gradually erodes the top layer of soil, leaving behind only large rocks.
    - danielheath 3y ago
      There are ruminants in plenty of other places without the land becoming inhospitable to most plants, though, so that's not a sufficient explanation (although I can clearly see how it contributes).
      - myshpa 3y ago
        My previous comment: "including grazing, deforestation, and the collection of firewood" https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316721412_Blame_it_on_the_goats_Desertification_in_the_Near_East_during_the_Holocene https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316721412_Blame_it_... "The authors analyze archaeological and ecological evidence to understand the relationship between human populations, goat herding, and land degradation. They argue that the widespread adoption of goat herding practices played a significant role in the process of desertification. Goats are known to be browsers, preferring to consume a variety of vegetation, including shrubs and trees. This selective feeding behavior, combined with the increasing human population and expansion of agricultural practices, led to the overgrazing of vegetation and subsequent soil erosion. The paper highlights that the degradation of vegetation cover and loss of soil fertility had cascading effects on the ecosystem. Reduced vegetation cover resulted in increased exposure of soil to wind and water erosion, leading to the expansion of arid and desert regions. The loss of vegetation also had a detrimental impact on biodiversity, as many plant and animal species dependent on these ecosystems faced habitat destruction and population decline."
CalRobert 3y ago
And what would be there if we didn't have sheep and goats there?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
contingencies 3y ago
Corn does well on rocky and steep terrain.

himinlomax 3y ago

Dairy is important for human nutrition because it has an excellent level of production of valuable proteins per acres and that can be done on marginal land that can't really be used for anything else anyway. You could get those proteins from soy, but that would have to be done on farm land, with fertilizer, irrigation and so on. How are those bees going to fare there? And that's assuming grazing is entirely hostile to bees, which it's arguably not that much considering how it doesn't require pesticides. You know, the thing that kills insects.

SuoDuanDao 3y ago

as always, it depends on practices. Here's a pretty good presentation on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z75A_JMBx4&t=783s&pp=ygUbY2F0dGxlIGNhcmJvbiBzZXF1ZXN0cmF0aW9u https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z75A_JMBx4&t=783s&pp=ygUbY2...