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> And most devs hating on Java are using an IDE written mainly in Java (all the JetBrains ones): the irony of that one gives me the giggles. Don't forget Confl

> And most devs hating on Java are using an IDE written mainly in Java (all the JetBrains ones): the irony of that one gives me the giggles. Don't forget Confluence and JIRA and all Atlassian products. Minecraft too. I facepalm when people say Java this and that

Hamuko 3y ago
Who are the people who belong to "I hate Java" and "I love Jira" sets? I'd love to see that Venn diagram.
- cipher_system 3y ago
  Do people who loves JIRA exist for real?
  - layer8 3y ago
    I believe some managers do.
  - miroljub 3y ago
    What's not to love? Infinitely configurable and extensible system that can accommodate any workflow and any process that comes to mind. It can be used and also misused, but blaming Jira for its misuse is like blaming Lisp because it's too flexible and too powerful.
    - adave 3y ago
      That's exactly the problem, we need a JIRA that is quick, efficient and not a death trap of a corvette for a 16yr old mental adult. Pretty please....
      - oxryly1 3y ago
        linear
    - darkwater 3y ago
      Indeed. Blaming Jira because it's missing this or that feature, or because the managed version is being slow is fine. Blaming it because it's an implementation of the twisted processes of your organization it is not (and that's what most people usually do, even if unknowingly)
    - Scarblac 3y ago
      That's precisely the problem, that simple workflows need infinite configuration. But there aren't truly great products on this market, that every organization does things differently puts limits on what is achievable.
  - freddie_mercury 3y ago
    Sure. Get out of HN bubble, go attend almost any Atlassian event -- their main user conference has thousands of users attending -- and you will easily run into people who love Jira and/or Confluence.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Yes, hello felow developer, every alternative I used in the last 30 years was worse in enterprise integrations.
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      I agree, it's not that Jira is good but the alternatives were worse
  - alkonaut 3y ago
    if you have a complex workflow that is supported by Jira, then you could use a simple too by switching to a simple workflow. Keeping the complex workflow but using a dumber tool (E.g. having to track it via post-its, emails, chat, six different spreadsheets on different SharePoint servers plus sign off in two different custom in-jhouse webapps, would be worse in every aspect). So when people say they hate Jira, they really hate the combination of Jira + the workflow under it. I'd happily live without complex processes. But IF I have to use a complex process, I do love having one tool to handle it with, instead of eight. I did this switch FROM the 8 different spreadsheets and webapps, into the Jira/Azure DevOps/Whatever, several times. And I loved it every time because it's a less bad solution. It's not a good solution (that would be reducing complexity in the process). But for sufficiently complex organizations and tasks, some times you need a complex process and a complex tool to maintain it. And I guess in that situation no one will love the tool even though it's the least bad one.
  - yyyk 3y ago
    When the alternative is Azure Devops...
  - GreymanTheGrey 3y ago
    I wouldn't say I 'love' it, but at the same time I don't really get all the hate. I've recently moved from a large'ish (50+) dev shop to a much smaller team of 3. JIRA was and is used at both places. It continues to serve both orgs equally well. Perhaps what people hate are all the ceremonies and bureaucracy that arise around JIRA in dysfunctional organisations, and not the product itself? The red tape and bullshit was just starting to take over at the old place (part of the reason I jumped ship), which made 'standups' that should have taken 5-10 minutes a 90-minute soul-destroying odyssey. But that's not JIRA's fault either.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Worked at AAA game developer. They had shit ton of custom workflows build on top of JIRA. Imagine you want to add a weapon to the game. With one click you could generate 100s of tasks for all the related stuff. It touches pretty much all the game. This is very very incomplete list for what Jira created tasks: - concept, 2d, 3d art - sounds, and there's quite a bit of them: just gun sound, reloads, impact on different surfaces etc - animations - this is a large one - writing: for example, background info on the weapon - gameplay design: how the gun fits into the game - world design: where the gun can be found, who (some fraction?) uses it - quest design: maybe the gun is a reward in some quest, or is used in a particular way - balance - obviously, programming for all the above - and even more obviously, testing all of the parts. And that's one workflow. You had those for many parts of the game.
  - fatnoah 3y ago
    > Do people who loves JIRA exist for real? I wouldn't say that I love JIRA, but every time I work at a company that doesn't use it, the alternative in place always feels much worse.
- negamax 3y ago
  People don't hate Jira because it's written in Java. They don't know or comprehend that something like Jira or Confluence or Minecraft can be written in Java.
  - josephg 3y ago
    Jira does, somehow, faintly smell of Java. There's just something about how slow it is, and how maximalist it is in supporting every whimsical idea that any rich corporate customer has ever asked of them. No matter how poorly the request blended with everything else Jira does. Mind you, I've only ever used Jira when its been setup, poorly, to fit in to a badly designed "scrum" process. People say it can be usable if you turn most of its features off. But the same is true of "smart" appliances, and that doesn't make me want to buy any of them.
    - animuchan 3y ago
      Every company I worked for eventually used Jira, and it's always set up poorly to half-support a badly designed process. At this point that's just a regular Jira installation, I guess.
    - blibble 3y ago
      jira's slow because it's a badly written piece of crap requiring 20mb of data transfer for each page load isn't java's fault
    - za3faran 3y ago
      Java isn't slow, quite the opposite in fact. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21
      - josephg 3y ago
        Don’t worry, enterprise Java programming patters will fix that “performance” thing right up. Call a function? Goodness no, not without an helper class being instantiated first. Oh you wanted to instantiate a helper class? Better call a factory to do that. Not directly - have you heard of Dependency Injection? We configure that via XML here. See? Fast performance isn’t a problem any more. You can make it go away in the time it takes you to load Jira.
- aprilnya 3y ago
  Unfortunately that won’t be possible, since the “I love Jira” set is empty :)
ilyt 3y ago
They don't hate it coz it's in Java...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
OJFord 3y ago
You can absolutely tell Jira is written in Java and not in a good way. I guessed the first time I went through one of the '...' > 'Move'/'Clone'/'Convert to subtask' flows.
cyber_kinetist 3y ago
Minecraft is actually a really good example of the opposite. Maybe some might hate the Java edition of Minecraft because of its frequent GC pauses, but the new performant Minecraft Bedrock written in C++ isn’t really that popular because of lackluster mod support. The reason Minecraft was able to have such a large mod ecosystem (even when it still doesn’t have an official modding API!) is that JVM bytecode is easily reverse-engineerable and extendable (…relatively, compared to fully compiled C++ code). Bedrock actually tried providing a modding API via JS scripting, but it was pretty lackluster in its flexibility and thus users mainly stayed in Java edition for the mods (using robust ecosystems like Spigot/Paper)

Hamuko 3y ago

Who are the people who belong to "I hate Java" and "I love Jira" sets? I'd love to see that Venn diagram.

cipher_system 3y ago
Do people who loves JIRA exist for real?
- layer8 3y ago
  I believe some managers do.
- miroljub 3y ago
  What's not to love? Infinitely configurable and extensible system that can accommodate any workflow and any process that comes to mind. It can be used and also misused, but blaming Jira for its misuse is like blaming Lisp because it's too flexible and too powerful.
  - adave 3y ago
    That's exactly the problem, we need a JIRA that is quick, efficient and not a death trap of a corvette for a 16yr old mental adult. Pretty please....
    - oxryly1 3y ago
      linear
  - darkwater 3y ago
    Indeed. Blaming Jira because it's missing this or that feature, or because the managed version is being slow is fine. Blaming it because it's an implementation of the twisted processes of your organization it is not (and that's what most people usually do, even if unknowingly)
  - Scarblac 3y ago
    That's precisely the problem, that simple workflows need infinite configuration. But there aren't truly great products on this market, that every organization does things differently puts limits on what is achievable.
- freddie_mercury 3y ago
  Sure. Get out of HN bubble, go attend almost any Atlassian event -- their main user conference has thousands of users attending -- and you will easily run into people who love Jira and/or Confluence.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Yes, hello felow developer, every alternative I used in the last 30 years was worse in enterprise integrations.
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    I agree, it's not that Jira is good but the alternatives were worse
- alkonaut 3y ago
  if you have a complex workflow that is supported by Jira, then you could use a simple too by switching to a simple workflow. Keeping the complex workflow but using a dumber tool (E.g. having to track it via post-its, emails, chat, six different spreadsheets on different SharePoint servers plus sign off in two different custom in-jhouse webapps, would be worse in every aspect). So when people say they hate Jira, they really hate the combination of Jira + the workflow under it. I'd happily live without complex processes. But IF I have to use a complex process, I do love having one tool to handle it with, instead of eight. I did this switch FROM the 8 different spreadsheets and webapps, into the Jira/Azure DevOps/Whatever, several times. And I loved it every time because it's a less bad solution. It's not a good solution (that would be reducing complexity in the process). But for sufficiently complex organizations and tasks, some times you need a complex process and a complex tool to maintain it. And I guess in that situation no one will love the tool even though it's the least bad one.
- yyyk 3y ago
  When the alternative is Azure Devops...
- GreymanTheGrey 3y ago
  I wouldn't say I 'love' it, but at the same time I don't really get all the hate. I've recently moved from a large'ish (50+) dev shop to a much smaller team of 3. JIRA was and is used at both places. It continues to serve both orgs equally well. Perhaps what people hate are all the ceremonies and bureaucracy that arise around JIRA in dysfunctional organisations, and not the product itself? The red tape and bullshit was just starting to take over at the old place (part of the reason I jumped ship), which made 'standups' that should have taken 5-10 minutes a 90-minute soul-destroying odyssey. But that's not JIRA's fault either.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  Worked at AAA game developer. They had shit ton of custom workflows build on top of JIRA. Imagine you want to add a weapon to the game. With one click you could generate 100s of tasks for all the related stuff. It touches pretty much all the game. This is very very incomplete list for what Jira created tasks: - concept, 2d, 3d art - sounds, and there's quite a bit of them: just gun sound, reloads, impact on different surfaces etc - animations - this is a large one - writing: for example, background info on the weapon - gameplay design: how the gun fits into the game - world design: where the gun can be found, who (some fraction?) uses it - quest design: maybe the gun is a reward in some quest, or is used in a particular way - balance - obviously, programming for all the above - and even more obviously, testing all of the parts. And that's one workflow. You had those for many parts of the game.
- fatnoah 3y ago
  > Do people who loves JIRA exist for real? I wouldn't say that I love JIRA, but every time I work at a company that doesn't use it, the alternative in place always feels much worse.
negamax 3y ago
People don't hate Jira because it's written in Java. They don't know or comprehend that something like Jira or Confluence or Minecraft can be written in Java.
- josephg 3y ago
  Jira does, somehow, faintly smell of Java. There's just something about how slow it is, and how maximalist it is in supporting every whimsical idea that any rich corporate customer has ever asked of them. No matter how poorly the request blended with everything else Jira does. Mind you, I've only ever used Jira when its been setup, poorly, to fit in to a badly designed "scrum" process. People say it can be usable if you turn most of its features off. But the same is true of "smart" appliances, and that doesn't make me want to buy any of them.
  - animuchan 3y ago
    Every company I worked for eventually used Jira, and it's always set up poorly to half-support a badly designed process. At this point that's just a regular Jira installation, I guess.
  - blibble 3y ago
    jira's slow because it's a badly written piece of crap requiring 20mb of data transfer for each page load isn't java's fault
  - za3faran 3y ago
    Java isn't slow, quite the opposite in fact. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21 https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21
    - josephg 3y ago
      Don’t worry, enterprise Java programming patters will fix that “performance” thing right up. Call a function? Goodness no, not without an helper class being instantiated first. Oh you wanted to instantiate a helper class? Better call a factory to do that. Not directly - have you heard of Dependency Injection? We configure that via XML here. See? Fast performance isn’t a problem any more. You can make it go away in the time it takes you to load Jira.
aprilnya 3y ago
Unfortunately that won’t be possible, since the “I love Jira” set is empty :)

ilyt 3y ago

They don't hate it coz it's in Java...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

OJFord 3y ago

You can absolutely tell Jira is written in Java and not in a good way. I guessed the first time I went through one of the '...' > 'Move'/'Clone'/'Convert to subtask' flows.

cyber_kinetist 3y ago

Minecraft is actually a really good example of the opposite. Maybe some might hate the Java edition of Minecraft because of its frequent GC pauses, but the new performant Minecraft Bedrock written in C++ isn’t really that popular because of lackluster mod support. The reason Minecraft was able to have such a large mod ecosystem (even when it still doesn’t have an official modding API!) is that JVM bytecode is easily reverse-engineerable and extendable (…relatively, compared to fully compiled C++ code). Bedrock actually tried providing a modding API via JS scripting, but it was pretty lackluster in its flexibility and thus users mainly stayed in Java edition for the mods (using robust ecosystems like Spigot/Paper)