4 ms·

Declarative UI, even when implemented coherently within the same langauge like in Flutter and MAUI/Xamarin, so there is no need for an ugly bridge between two w

by zerr 3y ago

Declarative UI, even when implemented coherently within the same langauge like in Flutter and MAUI/Xamarin, so there is no need for an ugly bridge between two worlds, still leads to an unreadable nested hell. Surprisingly, an imperative GUI creation code is much more easier to read and modify.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mort96 3y ago
Hmm? I've written a fair bit of React, which I assume fits the declarative description, and I never got the impression that it leads to an "unreadable nested hell". You split up your big functions into smaller reusable functions, just like in all other forms of programming.
- akdor1154 3y ago
  By the traditions of desktop ui, React is imperative (or maybe immediate): it's written in a declarative style, but ultimately jsx is just JavaScript. The best analogue to "declarative" in desktop ui terms would be to have your dom templates in separate files that you don't manipulate the structure of in code. I honestly have an overall negative view of react, but its method for letting you declare ui structure is really fantastic.
ogoffart 3y ago
I respectfully disagree. In my experience, Declarative UI is more concise, making development and changes easier. It enhances productivity and allows for a clear separation of concerns, which is beneficial. Moreover, Declarative UI enables the development of powerful tooling and visual editors. For instance, in Slint, we have an extension that provides live UI preview and code transformation capabilities. We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs.
- pkphilip 3y ago
  Have you looked at tools such as Delphi, Lazarus etc and the approach used to build GUI components which can be added at build time or at runtime? If you are interested in talking about this, do let me know.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs I don't think you have ever used an imperative API, have you? I used VB, then Delphi, then C++ builder and now use Lazarus, and there's no declarative equivalent that is easier or faster than those.
  - ogoffart 3y ago
    In the examples you mentioned, the UI is typically described in XML or form files (.dfm), which is essentially a declarative approach, and clearly not described in imperative code. Although they may not be intended to be edited by hand, the underlying representation is still declarative in nature.
    - lelanthran 3y ago
      Agreed, but they were easily achieved with imperative APIs. This is the statement I was contending: > We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs Maybe I should have said "there's no declarative-only equivalents that's easier or faster". As someone else pointed out elsethread, declarative is a subset of imperative, so it's easy to produce an imperative API that consumes machine-generated declarations, but not so easy to use a declarative-only framework to reproduce the ease and speed of Delphi, Lazarus, etc.
pkphilip 3y ago
Absolutely. I actually prefer a combination of declarative + imperative code similar to how it is in Delphi/Lazarus. The overall layout of the GUI is designed using a GUI designer and this gets saved as a "form" in a resource file which is loaded at run time and so the actual code does not have a lot of declaration of the GUI but it is read in as a stream from a separate resource file. However, to this GUI, you can add event handlers, add or remove components at run time etc. All of this is quite clumsily done (IMHO) in frameworks such as flutter.

by zerr 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mort96 3y ago

Hmm? I've written a fair bit of React, which I assume fits the declarative description, and I never got the impression that it leads to an "unreadable nested hell". You split up your big functions into smaller reusable functions, just like in all other forms of programming.

akdor1154 3y ago
By the traditions of desktop ui, React is imperative (or maybe immediate): it's written in a declarative style, but ultimately jsx is just JavaScript. The best analogue to "declarative" in desktop ui terms would be to have your dom templates in separate files that you don't manipulate the structure of in code. I honestly have an overall negative view of react, but its method for letting you declare ui structure is really fantastic.

ogoffart 3y ago

I respectfully disagree. In my experience, Declarative UI is more concise, making development and changes easier. It enhances productivity and allows for a clear separation of concerns, which is beneficial. Moreover, Declarative UI enables the development of powerful tooling and visual editors. For instance, in Slint, we have an extension that provides live UI preview and code transformation capabilities. We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs.

pkphilip 3y ago
Have you looked at tools such as Delphi, Lazarus etc and the approach used to build GUI components which can be added at build time or at runtime? If you are interested in talking about this, do let me know.
lelanthran 3y ago
> We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs I don't think you have ever used an imperative API, have you? I used VB, then Delphi, then C++ builder and now use Lazarus, and there's no declarative equivalent that is easier or faster than those.
- ogoffart 3y ago
  In the examples you mentioned, the UI is typically described in XML or form files (.dfm), which is essentially a declarative approach, and clearly not described in imperative code. Although they may not be intended to be edited by hand, the underlying representation is still declarative in nature.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    Agreed, but they were easily achieved with imperative APIs. This is the statement I was contending: > We are also actively working on a visual editor that lets users drag and drop widgets. Such capabilities are difficult or impossible to achieve with imperative APIs Maybe I should have said "there's no declarative-only equivalents that's easier or faster". As someone else pointed out elsethread, declarative is a subset of imperative, so it's easy to produce an imperative API that consumes machine-generated declarations, but not so easy to use a declarative-only framework to reproduce the ease and speed of Delphi, Lazarus, etc.

pkphilip 3y ago

Absolutely. I actually prefer a combination of declarative + imperative code similar to how it is in Delphi/Lazarus. The overall layout of the GUI is designed using a GUI designer and this gets saved as a "form" in a resource file which is loaded at run time and so the actual code does not have a lot of declaration of the GUI but it is read in as a stream from a separate resource file. However, to this GUI, you can add event handlers, add or remove components at run time etc. All of this is quite clumsily done (IMHO) in frameworks such as flutter.