3 ms·

I've tried many times, with many different approaches and many different people over the course of a 20-year career. The variation in outcomes was absolutely z

I've tried many times, with many different approaches and many different people over the course of a 20-year career. The variation in outcomes was absolutely zero. To anyone who wants to believe that bosses are fundamentally capable of tolerating independent thought among their underlings, I would recommend the book "Disciplined Minds" by Jeff Schmidt [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Disciplined-Minds-Critical-Professionals-Soul-Battering/dp/0742516857/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=disciplined+minds https://www.amazon.com/Disciplined-Minds-Critical-Profession...

emodendroket 3y ago
I guess theoretically I could have had a career that's gone even better than the one I have had, but I haven't had any real problems with my approach so I think I'll stick with it.
- stakhanov 3y ago
  Were you trying to say "My success proves me right"? Because the other reading is: You're not good at independent thinking, therefore you've never had those independent thoughts that made your bosses dislike you, and that explains why you had a good career. So, your success proves me right. Now enter into some introspection. Do you dislike me, now that I've suggested this? Or do I get brownie points from you for being an independent thinker and voicing my disagreement? Because I genuinely believe that there's a valid and interesting thought in what I just said that we can all learn from. Also: If you were my boss, I would have just killed my career prospects.
  - emodendroket 3y ago
    If your approach is personal insult then I can see why it isn’t that well received. To answer your question, though, I was saying I feel I have had success raising disagreements and didn’t ask for or particularly want to read something explaining to me why I should ignore over a decade of my own experience. Hey maybe I’m just really dull like you suggest.
    - stakhanov 3y ago
      If you really want to call in the tone police on this: My initial comment was reacting to the article saying "This doesn't match my experience" in which I've simultaneously made myself vulnerable to ad-hominem attack because it was implying that my career wasn't going so well. And your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y." What do you know about whether I use one-on-ones for voicing disagreements with my bosses versus making them look bad in public?
      - cxr 3y ago
        > your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y." No. No one said that. Don't make up quotes.
      - emodendroket 3y ago
        I didn’t say any of that and that was just one illustrative example of how your method of delivery can have a big influence on whether your suggestions are received as well intentioned or hostile. If you are this prone to seeing attempts to offend you where none are there and responding in kind then I do think we’ve found the root of your problem.
      - hitekker 3y ago
        FWIW, I think resistance, as hinted at in Disciplined Minds, is a weak basis for an identity. A "truth to power" speaker is only good for certain kinds of truths and certain kinds of power. Its a role that doesn't mean much outside of that; it doesn't hold up in the long run.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    I am not the OP, I am not your boss, we are not even in total disagreement, and yet your short comment already rubs me the wrong way. Maybe your streak of bad results isn't a result of disagreement per se, but of your attitude. If you usually present your disagreement in the same way that you wrote this comment, the I-Win-You-Lose attitude is a good way to needlessly alienate other people.
  - smitty1e 3y ago
    It's almost as though you're saying that offering contradictory advice to the boss is akin to arguing against the orthodoxy on HN. Your moderation score is the wages of sin, son.
precompute 3y ago
Yes, bosses, in the end, don't really care. They'll "appreciate" it in their minds (in the manner of a process being completed) but then not do anything with it, because that's not their job. They exist to create confusion and order from it and anyone honest enough to be a Good boss is quickly dethroned. Thanks for the book recommendation!
- zo1 3y ago
  I'm a "boss" of people that report to me and I oversee, and I certainly care and appreciate feedback and suggestions and criticism. But that's where it ends. I am under no obligation to do what this subordinate wants or thinks is best. It isn't a democracy or a decision by committee when we have hierarchical structures in place. You give your best advice, suggestions, opinions and recommendations...and then it's up to the leader to make a decision; wrong or right. That's leadership.
  - stakhanov 3y ago
    The question is not so much whether you do as you're told by your subordinate but how you handle the "disagree-but-commit" state. Ideally, the way it should work would be for the boss to say: "Okay, I think the right course of action is X, you think it's Y. We're in disagreement, but because I'm the boss, we'll do X. As you go about doing X, I won't intrude on your sphere of autonomy but will instead trust that you're a professional and will execute on X faithfully. If you frequently disagree with me and you're up for a promotion, I won't hold the disagreements against you. It might even work in your advantage, because we need to increase diversity of thought in management, rather than filling management roles with yes-men." The way it usually works, in my experience, is: "I want you to do X, but you think you should be doing Y. That makes you a risk, because there's a danger you will sabotage X and execute on Y instead. I'll subject you to extra-close supervision to counteract that risk. When you're up for a promotion and you frequently disagree with me, I will fight your promotion, because if we increase your level of influence, it'll create more work for me, because I'll have to double-check your judgment and countermand your actions as a manager whereever I disagree. Having people in management who aren't yes-men just makes management more work, and we don't need that." If your boss is of the latter kind and you disagree with them, then it's a mistake for you to ever "show your hand" to them by telling them about it. It's then better to just keep your mouth shut, and do as you're told. -- And this "shut your mouth and do as you're told" is my career advice for young people. This makes me look bad, and reflects poorly on the companies I've worked for. But that's the difference between career advice and hagiography.

emodendroket 3y ago

I guess theoretically I could have had a career that's gone even better than the one I have had, but I haven't had any real problems with my approach so I think I'll stick with it.

stakhanov 3y ago
Were you trying to say "My success proves me right"? Because the other reading is: You're not good at independent thinking, therefore you've never had those independent thoughts that made your bosses dislike you, and that explains why you had a good career. So, your success proves me right. Now enter into some introspection. Do you dislike me, now that I've suggested this? Or do I get brownie points from you for being an independent thinker and voicing my disagreement? Because I genuinely believe that there's a valid and interesting thought in what I just said that we can all learn from. Also: If you were my boss, I would have just killed my career prospects.
- emodendroket 3y ago
  If your approach is personal insult then I can see why it isn’t that well received. To answer your question, though, I was saying I feel I have had success raising disagreements and didn’t ask for or particularly want to read something explaining to me why I should ignore over a decade of my own experience. Hey maybe I’m just really dull like you suggest.
  - stakhanov 3y ago
    If you really want to call in the tone police on this: My initial comment was reacting to the article saying "This doesn't match my experience" in which I've simultaneously made myself vulnerable to ad-hominem attack because it was implying that my career wasn't going so well. And your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y." What do you know about whether I use one-on-ones for voicing disagreements with my bosses versus making them look bad in public?
    - cxr 3y ago
      > your response was to step on that vulnerability and say: "Well, take it from someone whose career is going great: If you're the sort of person who has experience X, you're probably the sort of person who would make mistake Y." No. No one said that. Don't make up quotes.
    - emodendroket 3y ago
      I didn’t say any of that and that was just one illustrative example of how your method of delivery can have a big influence on whether your suggestions are received as well intentioned or hostile. If you are this prone to seeing attempts to offend you where none are there and responding in kind then I do think we’ve found the root of your problem.
    - hitekker 3y ago
      FWIW, I think resistance, as hinted at in Disciplined Minds, is a weak basis for an identity. A "truth to power" speaker is only good for certain kinds of truths and certain kinds of power. Its a role that doesn't mean much outside of that; it doesn't hold up in the long run.
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  I am not the OP, I am not your boss, we are not even in total disagreement, and yet your short comment already rubs me the wrong way. Maybe your streak of bad results isn't a result of disagreement per se, but of your attitude. If you usually present your disagreement in the same way that you wrote this comment, the I-Win-You-Lose attitude is a good way to needlessly alienate other people.
- smitty1e 3y ago
  It's almost as though you're saying that offering contradictory advice to the boss is akin to arguing against the orthodoxy on HN. Your moderation score is the wages of sin, son.

precompute 3y ago

Yes, bosses, in the end, don't really care. They'll "appreciate" it in their minds (in the manner of a process being completed) but then not do anything with it, because that's not their job. They exist to create confusion and order from it and anyone honest enough to be a Good boss is quickly dethroned. Thanks for the book recommendation!

zo1 3y ago
I'm a "boss" of people that report to me and I oversee, and I certainly care and appreciate feedback and suggestions and criticism. But that's where it ends. I am under no obligation to do what this subordinate wants or thinks is best. It isn't a democracy or a decision by committee when we have hierarchical structures in place. You give your best advice, suggestions, opinions and recommendations...and then it's up to the leader to make a decision; wrong or right. That's leadership.
- stakhanov 3y ago
  The question is not so much whether you do as you're told by your subordinate but how you handle the "disagree-but-commit" state. Ideally, the way it should work would be for the boss to say: "Okay, I think the right course of action is X, you think it's Y. We're in disagreement, but because I'm the boss, we'll do X. As you go about doing X, I won't intrude on your sphere of autonomy but will instead trust that you're a professional and will execute on X faithfully. If you frequently disagree with me and you're up for a promotion, I won't hold the disagreements against you. It might even work in your advantage, because we need to increase diversity of thought in management, rather than filling management roles with yes-men." The way it usually works, in my experience, is: "I want you to do X, but you think you should be doing Y. That makes you a risk, because there's a danger you will sabotage X and execute on Y instead. I'll subject you to extra-close supervision to counteract that risk. When you're up for a promotion and you frequently disagree with me, I will fight your promotion, because if we increase your level of influence, it'll create more work for me, because I'll have to double-check your judgment and countermand your actions as a manager whereever I disagree. Having people in management who aren't yes-men just makes management more work, and we don't need that." If your boss is of the latter kind and you disagree with them, then it's a mistake for you to ever "show your hand" to them by telling them about it. It's then better to just keep your mouth shut, and do as you're told. -- And this "shut your mouth and do as you're told" is my career advice for young people. This makes me look bad, and reflects poorly on the companies I've worked for. But that's the difference between career advice and hagiography.