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I already mentioned the Western Juniper, a “native” plant which the USFWS actively finances burning. A moral framework where some native species need heaven and

by jakear 3y ago

I already mentioned the Western Juniper, a “native” plant which the USFWS actively finances burning. A moral framework where some native species need heaven and earth moved for them to not be burned while other native species need taxpayer dollars to finance their combustion isn’t very appealing to me. Live and let live, I say.

UncleEntity 3y ago
> Juniperus occidentalis, known as the western juniper, is a shrub or tree native to the Western United States… Since you obviously don’t understand how these plants have adapted themselves and the role of wildfires to western living I’d suggest, maybe, doing a little research on the subject. I’m also 100% certain the goal isn’t to actually combust the trees in prescribed burns.
- jakear 3y ago
  What is it you think I don’t understand, taking into account I have volunteered months of my time on USFWS refuges engaged in the active burning of the Western Juniper, and have conversed at length with biologists involved in the management of said refuges? And have read literal textbooks on said Species. And read hundred+ page reports on the plans for managing said species. > I’m also 100% certain the goal isn’t to actually combust the trees in prescribed burns. I’m glad you stated it so plainly, as I can be equally certain you’re dead wrong.
  - kylewatson 3y ago
    This weed is growing in the low valley, not where junipers are growing. There are about 4000ft of difference here. The article shows Carefree AZ as an example of infestation, which is at 2400ft. Junipers grow at 6000ft. I can't believe you're really trying to make the argument that this plant is great because it will burn saguaros or barrel cactuses and we burn juniper on purpose so that must be good for saguaros and barrel cactuses. Don't get defensive. I'm not upset at you. Just think about this argument. It's not a logical argument. You're saying that if X is good for Y and B causes X' for Z, then B is good. But you have not established that X' is good for Z, and you haven't established that B causes X for Y. So if this plant doesn't cause fires for Junipers, and if fires aren't good for desert plants, then how the hell are you arguing this plant is good because it causes fires for desert plants? Don't take my word for it. Ask ChatGPT if this makes any damned sense. Maybe the matrix can convince you that this is an illogical argument.
    - jakear 3y ago
      I brought up the Juniper as an example of a species that, while native, is handled like a “weed”, and subject to expensive taxpayer funded burn-based removal efforts. This was to rebuke the claim the undereducated love to make of “native=good, introduced=bad”. If some native are “bad”, perhaps some introduced are “good”. Or, better yet, perhaps we can stop trying to play God all the damn time and just let things play out via the mechanisms of Natural Selection, which as far as I’m concerned have done a pretty darned good job of developing biodiversity so far.

by jakear 3y ago

UncleEntity 3y ago

> Juniperus occidentalis, known as the western juniper, is a shrub or tree native to the Western United States… Since you obviously don’t understand how these plants have adapted themselves and the role of wildfires to western living I’d suggest, maybe, doing a little research on the subject. I’m also 100% certain the goal isn’t to actually combust the trees in prescribed burns.

jakear 3y ago
What is it you think I don’t understand, taking into account I have volunteered months of my time on USFWS refuges engaged in the active burning of the Western Juniper, and have conversed at length with biologists involved in the management of said refuges? And have read literal textbooks on said Species. And read hundred+ page reports on the plans for managing said species. > I’m also 100% certain the goal isn’t to actually combust the trees in prescribed burns. I’m glad you stated it so plainly, as I can be equally certain you’re dead wrong.
- kylewatson 3y ago
  This weed is growing in the low valley, not where junipers are growing. There are about 4000ft of difference here. The article shows Carefree AZ as an example of infestation, which is at 2400ft. Junipers grow at 6000ft. I can't believe you're really trying to make the argument that this plant is great because it will burn saguaros or barrel cactuses and we burn juniper on purpose so that must be good for saguaros and barrel cactuses. Don't get defensive. I'm not upset at you. Just think about this argument. It's not a logical argument. You're saying that if X is good for Y and B causes X' for Z, then B is good. But you have not established that X' is good for Z, and you haven't established that B causes X for Y. So if this plant doesn't cause fires for Junipers, and if fires aren't good for desert plants, then how the hell are you arguing this plant is good because it causes fires for desert plants? Don't take my word for it. Ask ChatGPT if this makes any damned sense. Maybe the matrix can convince you that this is an illogical argument.
  - jakear 3y ago
    I brought up the Juniper as an example of a species that, while native, is handled like a “weed”, and subject to expensive taxpayer funded burn-based removal efforts. This was to rebuke the claim the undereducated love to make of “native=good, introduced=bad”. If some native are “bad”, perhaps some introduced are “good”. Or, better yet, perhaps we can stop trying to play God all the damn time and just let things play out via the mechanisms of Natural Selection, which as far as I’m concerned have done a pretty darned good job of developing biodiversity so far.