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I love love love Ableton Live. It's possibly my favorite piece of software today. If you're a software engineer interested in UX, I think Live will fit your br

I love love love Ableton Live. It's possibly my favorite piece of software today. If you're a software engineer interested in UX, I think Live will fit your brain like a hand in glove. It reminds me very much of emacs or vi where the app is designed to disappear from view and let you focus on your content. Also, it's incredibly programmable and generative at many many different levels: * Session view lets you build arrangements on the fly in realtime. * Follow actions on clips let you automatically build sequences of clips, loop, them, randomly chain them, etc. It's like control flow for clips. * The various built-in synths and effects support all sorts of dynamic modulation to make timbres evolve on their own. * Then, of course, there is Max4Live, a full-fledged visual programming environment integrated deeply into the app. You, of course, can ignore all that stuff and just make completed fixed tracks. But if you're interested in the live aspects of Live, then the software really feels like a substrate that you can use to build your own bespoke instrument for playing your music in real time. I love it so much.

FractalHQ 3y ago
I agree, and with over 15 years of experience with Live and a fruitful music career thanks to it, I have a deep respect for it. It’s hard to use anything else because of how many small, seemingly insignificant workflow features it has which add up quick in a session. _But_ - man is it far behind the modern DAWS like Studio One and Bitwig in the low-level fundamentals like plug-in isolation, multithreading, and flexibility in terms of your ability to offload frozen tracks from RAM. This puts a bottleneck on the max size of a session before it becomes unstable and unusable. Even with 32GB RAM and a top-shelf CPU, my ability to finish a song grinds to a halt around the 100 track range. My songs can have 150 tracks with 1-20 plugins and 1-30 automation lanes per track by the time they are finished, and the number of hours I’ve lost from crashing or just waiting for it to respond could easily add up to months at this point. And small things like the inability to know if a plug-in is the VST2 or VST3 version have been driving me nuts for over a decade. My music is absurdly abnormal in terms of complexity though, and the vast majority of people will never encounter these problems. I worry, however, that the glacial pace of development likely due to the prehistoric tech stack at Ableton will prevent it from ever closing the growing gap made by the increasingly valuable feature sets of modern DAWs have been able to push out quickly and consistently. Either way, Ableton Live is a great demonstration of the incredibly fine nuance involved in a good UX. They got a lot of little things right, and that alone has been the largest contributor to their success in the industry.
- honkycat 3y ago
  What I want to see from Bitwig is better integration with daw controllers. I'm addicted to my ableton push... i can't move over just because of that. I've tried the driven by moss stuff and it works great but eh... just not quite as good overall.
  - lmpdev 3y ago
    Wouldn't the onus be on the controller manufacturers to ensure compatibility?
    - honkycat 3y ago
      Bitwig is extremely niche. Waiting around for controller manufacturers to implement isn't going to happen.
    - prmoustache 3y ago
      Push is made by Ableton. I am not sure they are willing to help a company build by some of their ex developer who left them to build a new DAW with possibly stolen code and at least many ideas that were discussed internally. Despite the headquarters proximity, I think they are not the best friends.
      - easyThrowaway 3y ago
        Not so sure about the "stolen" part. Bitwig code has a completely different code base (Java backend with UI written using Juce), and the sentiment at the time was that a few devs were frustrated by Ableton management rejecting several proposals that ultimately were implemented in Bitwig. Also the multitake tracks UI that was implemented in Live 11 is basically a (slightly improved) copy of the same feature on Bitwig.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        3y ago
cageface 3y ago
Ableton is great but these days I prefer Bitwig. It does most of what live does but lets you do more modular stuff without the massive context switch into Max.
- winternett 3y ago
  I use Acid Pro 10... I think it allows me to have a more original sound to be honest. At this point I've found that tools are leveling off in terms of capability and now it's more a matter of what a producer knows how to manipulate best. There are nuances like how audio clips and knowing how built in efx work that make transitioning to a new DAW painful until you catch up, the deep learning curve is steep for advanced production... Rather than switching, I already know how my current DAW works, and it works, so there's no need to change right now.
- nassimm 3y ago
  I've used Ableton for about 12 years before making the switch to bitwig, it's the best thing I've ever done. There are very, very few Ableton features that I miss. The only thing I can think of is the automations rescaling I wish Bitwig would implement, otherwise it's vastly superior to Ableton in any other way. Especially the bounce/audio editing workflow, this thing makes me 2 to 3 times faster than when using Ableton (no hyperbole)
- easyThrowaway 3y ago
  It's also massively cheaper. For a lot of the things available on stock Bitwig (~399$, often discounted at 249$) you need Live Suite + Max 4 Live + Cycling Max MSP, the asking price is no less than 1300$. Live main selling point right compared to Bitwig now is ubiquity, basically. You can expect to go into any recording studio, anywhere, and find a Live desk available.
anthonypz 3y ago
I've always been curious about synths and how they are programmed. I'm a JS dev learning Rust and was having ideas about building my own synth. Is Max4Live a good choice for building audio plugins in 2023? Also, is Rust a viable option for creating VST plugins?
- tumult 3y ago
  I don't think Max4Live is not a good choice for building audio plugins. It's a weird platform that was designed for 'institutionalized academic music,' as I once read someone describe it. It's difficult to program in and not efficient. None of my favorite music software is made with it. It's also quite buggy, in my experience. For doing some basic extensions to Ableton Live specifically, beyond what VST allows access to, it's OK, since it's the only official way to do so. If you want to just dive into DSP using wires and boxes, with some additional code sprinkled in, SynthEdit or Reaktor Core are faster, more fun, and produce better results. If you don't mind C++, check out iPlug from REAPER's WDL codebase: https://www.cockos.com/wdl/ https://www.cockos.com/wdl/ — there are some forks of it. There's also JUCE. You'll find some people complain about it and some people regret using it, despite it being relatively popular. There are some Rust things for doing VST (and AU) development. Here's one that I've seen a few things made with: https://github.com/robbert-vdh/nih-plug/tree/master https://github.com/robbert-vdh/nih-plug/tree/master I wouldn't worry too much about the differences between C++ and Rust in this world. Audio software tends to be buggy, so the bar for being considered 'good enough' is pretty low.
  - tumult 3y ago
    Can’t edit this comment now, but the opening sentence has a typo. It should say, “I don’t think Max4Live is a good choice for building audio plugins.”
  - laratied 3y ago
    I have hated Max/MSP for at least the last 15 years. Designed for 'institutionalized academic music' made me chuckle. Autechre's Confield album is what it is good at doing. There is nothing more to do with the software after that album.

FractalHQ 3y ago

I agree, and with over 15 years of experience with Live and a fruitful music career thanks to it, I have a deep respect for it. It’s hard to use anything else because of how many small, seemingly insignificant workflow features it has which add up quick in a session. _But_ - man is it far behind the modern DAWS like Studio One and Bitwig in the low-level fundamentals like plug-in isolation, multithreading, and flexibility in terms of your ability to offload frozen tracks from RAM. This puts a bottleneck on the max size of a session before it becomes unstable and unusable. Even with 32GB RAM and a top-shelf CPU, my ability to finish a song grinds to a halt around the 100 track range. My songs can have 150 tracks with 1-20 plugins and 1-30 automation lanes per track by the time they are finished, and the number of hours I’ve lost from crashing or just waiting for it to respond could easily add up to months at this point. And small things like the inability to know if a plug-in is the VST2 or VST3 version have been driving me nuts for over a decade. My music is absurdly abnormal in terms of complexity though, and the vast majority of people will never encounter these problems. I worry, however, that the glacial pace of development likely due to the prehistoric tech stack at Ableton will prevent it from ever closing the growing gap made by the increasingly valuable feature sets of modern DAWs have been able to push out quickly and consistently. Either way, Ableton Live is a great demonstration of the incredibly fine nuance involved in a good UX. They got a lot of little things right, and that alone has been the largest contributor to their success in the industry.

honkycat 3y ago
What I want to see from Bitwig is better integration with daw controllers. I'm addicted to my ableton push... i can't move over just because of that. I've tried the driven by moss stuff and it works great but eh... just not quite as good overall.
- lmpdev 3y ago
  Wouldn't the onus be on the controller manufacturers to ensure compatibility?
  - honkycat 3y ago
    Bitwig is extremely niche. Waiting around for controller manufacturers to implement isn't going to happen.
  - prmoustache 3y ago
    Push is made by Ableton. I am not sure they are willing to help a company build by some of their ex developer who left them to build a new DAW with possibly stolen code and at least many ideas that were discussed internally. Despite the headquarters proximity, I think they are not the best friends.
    - easyThrowaway 3y ago
      Not so sure about the "stolen" part. Bitwig code has a completely different code base (Java backend with UI written using Juce), and the sentiment at the time was that a few devs were frustrated by Ableton management rejecting several proposals that ultimately were implemented in Bitwig. Also the multitake tracks UI that was implemented in Live 11 is basically a (slightly improved) copy of the same feature on Bitwig.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - 3y ago

cageface 3y ago

Ableton is great but these days I prefer Bitwig. It does most of what live does but lets you do more modular stuff without the massive context switch into Max.

winternett 3y ago
I use Acid Pro 10... I think it allows me to have a more original sound to be honest. At this point I've found that tools are leveling off in terms of capability and now it's more a matter of what a producer knows how to manipulate best. There are nuances like how audio clips and knowing how built in efx work that make transitioning to a new DAW painful until you catch up, the deep learning curve is steep for advanced production... Rather than switching, I already know how my current DAW works, and it works, so there's no need to change right now.
nassimm 3y ago
I've used Ableton for about 12 years before making the switch to bitwig, it's the best thing I've ever done. There are very, very few Ableton features that I miss. The only thing I can think of is the automations rescaling I wish Bitwig would implement, otherwise it's vastly superior to Ableton in any other way. Especially the bounce/audio editing workflow, this thing makes me 2 to 3 times faster than when using Ableton (no hyperbole)
easyThrowaway 3y ago
It's also massively cheaper. For a lot of the things available on stock Bitwig (~399$, often discounted at 249$) you need Live Suite + Max 4 Live + Cycling Max MSP, the asking price is no less than 1300$. Live main selling point right compared to Bitwig now is ubiquity, basically. You can expect to go into any recording studio, anywhere, and find a Live desk available.

anthonypz 3y ago

I've always been curious about synths and how they are programmed. I'm a JS dev learning Rust and was having ideas about building my own synth. Is Max4Live a good choice for building audio plugins in 2023? Also, is Rust a viable option for creating VST plugins?

tumult 3y ago
I don't think Max4Live is not a good choice for building audio plugins. It's a weird platform that was designed for 'institutionalized academic music,' as I once read someone describe it. It's difficult to program in and not efficient. None of my favorite music software is made with it. It's also quite buggy, in my experience. For doing some basic extensions to Ableton Live specifically, beyond what VST allows access to, it's OK, since it's the only official way to do so. If you want to just dive into DSP using wires and boxes, with some additional code sprinkled in, SynthEdit or Reaktor Core are faster, more fun, and produce better results. If you don't mind C++, check out iPlug from REAPER's WDL codebase: https://www.cockos.com/wdl/ https://www.cockos.com/wdl/ — there are some forks of it. There's also JUCE. You'll find some people complain about it and some people regret using it, despite it being relatively popular. There are some Rust things for doing VST (and AU) development. Here's one that I've seen a few things made with: https://github.com/robbert-vdh/nih-plug/tree/master https://github.com/robbert-vdh/nih-plug/tree/master I wouldn't worry too much about the differences between C++ and Rust in this world. Audio software tends to be buggy, so the bar for being considered 'good enough' is pretty low.
- tumult 3y ago
  Can’t edit this comment now, but the opening sentence has a typo. It should say, “I don’t think Max4Live is a good choice for building audio plugins.”
- laratied 3y ago
  I have hated Max/MSP for at least the last 15 years. Designed for 'institutionalized academic music' made me chuckle. Autechre's Confield album is what it is good at doing. There is nothing more to do with the software after that album.