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I want to see Biden invoke the 14th ammendment and keep paying the bills. This will be challenged in the Supreme Court. If the Court goes with the 14th amendmen

I want to see Biden invoke the 14th ammendment and keep paying the bills. This will be challenged in the Supreme Court. If the Court goes with the 14th amendment then we don't have to do these debt ceiling hostage crises anymore. There's a possibility that the "original intenters" on the SCOTUS will say that the 14th amendment only applies to military and gov pensions (a very narrow reading)... then it's $1T platinum coin time.

tivert 3y ago
No. They should concede and raise the debt limit now, then abolish it through legislation the next time they have power. That's the responsible thing to do. This fiasco should make that possible, even with the majorities they had during the last congress. Of course, "never give an inch" is now the motto of both parties, so it'll never happen and all we'll get is gimmicks.
- amalcon 3y ago
  > the next time they have power. This action would require a simple majority in the House, a 3/5 majority in the Senate, and either the presidency or increasing both of those to 2/3 majorities. The last time the Dems had that much power was 2010. Is it really surprising that folks are unwilling to accept a decade or more of giving the GOP whatever they want?
  - tivert 3y ago
    > Is it really surprising that folks are unwilling to accept a decade or more of giving the GOP whatever they want? That's the political reality. If they don't want to deal with reality, then I guess we'll see what happens.
    - amalcon 3y ago
      The political reality is quite a bit more complicated than that, but frankly I don't want to get into it both because this isn't the right place and because it's depressing. Cheers, though; hopefully we can still find a way to avoid that worst case.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  If the demands were reasonable, I'd agree with you. But cutting 33% from discretionary non-military budgets is not a reasonable demand.
  - tivert 3y ago
    > If the demands were reasonable, I'd agree with you. But cutting 33% from discretionary non-military budgets is not a reasonable demand. Changing that figure are what negotiations are for, but (at least) one side has loudly and publicly refused to negotiate.
    - UncleOxidant 3y ago
      No, that's what budget negotiations are for. The debt ceiling is about servicing the debt that has already been incurred. Biden submitted his budget proposal for next year like almost 2 months ago. The GOP has yet to outline their budget proposal, but when they do then both sides sit down to workout that budget.
      - tivert 3y ago
        > No, that's what budget negotiations are for. The debt ceiling is about servicing the debt that has already been incurred. That's a false distinction. It's all just legislation, and there's no real reason this needs to be here and that needs to be there except all the branches of government agree they want to do it that way. If you think I'm wrong, point to the Constitutional provision that spells out debt ceiling increases are not the place to negotiate budget.
    - bryanlarsen 3y ago
      That's not true. Biden has already accepted one of the demands, to remove unspent portions of the stimulus bill.
- no_wizard 3y ago
  Conceding means rolling back legislation that is meant to speed up our path to renewables[0] and cutting spending (in many cases, quite drastically) across the board. The democrats on the other hand, want to close tax loopholes[1] which is what the GOP is opposing [0]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-whats-in-the-gop-bill-to-lift-the-u-s-debt-limit https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-whats-in-the-gop... [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/15/debt-ceiling-negotiations-deadline-default/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/15/debt-ceil...
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  If indeed there is a conflict between the budget ceiling law and the 14th amendment the courts are the appropriate place to get that settled. Sure, given the makeup of the current SCOTUS it seems more probable that they're going to side with the GOP, but that's not a given. And if they decide that the 14th amendment negates the budget ceiling law then we'll be done with these silly games of chicken over the debt ceiling.

tivert 3y ago

No. They should concede and raise the debt limit now, then abolish it through legislation the next time they have power. That's the responsible thing to do. This fiasco should make that possible, even with the majorities they had during the last congress. Of course, "never give an inch" is now the motto of both parties, so it'll never happen and all we'll get is gimmicks.

amalcon 3y ago
> the next time they have power. This action would require a simple majority in the House, a 3/5 majority in the Senate, and either the presidency or increasing both of those to 2/3 majorities. The last time the Dems had that much power was 2010. Is it really surprising that folks are unwilling to accept a decade or more of giving the GOP whatever they want?
- tivert 3y ago
  > Is it really surprising that folks are unwilling to accept a decade or more of giving the GOP whatever they want? That's the political reality. If they don't want to deal with reality, then I guess we'll see what happens.
  - amalcon 3y ago
    The political reality is quite a bit more complicated than that, but frankly I don't want to get into it both because this isn't the right place and because it's depressing. Cheers, though; hopefully we can still find a way to avoid that worst case.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
If the demands were reasonable, I'd agree with you. But cutting 33% from discretionary non-military budgets is not a reasonable demand.
- tivert 3y ago
  > If the demands were reasonable, I'd agree with you. But cutting 33% from discretionary non-military budgets is not a reasonable demand. Changing that figure are what negotiations are for, but (at least) one side has loudly and publicly refused to negotiate.
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    No, that's what budget negotiations are for. The debt ceiling is about servicing the debt that has already been incurred. Biden submitted his budget proposal for next year like almost 2 months ago. The GOP has yet to outline their budget proposal, but when they do then both sides sit down to workout that budget.
    - tivert 3y ago
      > No, that's what budget negotiations are for. The debt ceiling is about servicing the debt that has already been incurred. That's a false distinction. It's all just legislation, and there's no real reason this needs to be here and that needs to be there except all the branches of government agree they want to do it that way. If you think I'm wrong, point to the Constitutional provision that spells out debt ceiling increases are not the place to negotiate budget.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    That's not true. Biden has already accepted one of the demands, to remove unspent portions of the stimulus bill.
no_wizard 3y ago
Conceding means rolling back legislation that is meant to speed up our path to renewables[0] and cutting spending (in many cases, quite drastically) across the board. The democrats on the other hand, want to close tax loopholes[1] which is what the GOP is opposing [0]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-whats-in-the-gop-bill-to-lift-the-u-s-debt-limit https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-whats-in-the-gop... [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/15/debt-ceiling-negotiations-deadline-default/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/05/15/debt-ceil...
UncleOxidant 3y ago
If indeed there is a conflict between the budget ceiling law and the 14th amendment the courts are the appropriate place to get that settled. Sure, given the makeup of the current SCOTUS it seems more probable that they're going to side with the GOP, but that's not a given. And if they decide that the 14th amendment negates the budget ceiling law then we'll be done with these silly games of chicken over the debt ceiling.