4 ms·

I get what you're saying, but on the other hand abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions.

zmgsabst 3y ago
In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. > Twitter, alerted a federal law enforcement agency to pro-abortion protests and rallies in the wake of the reversal of Roe v. Wade, according to documents obtained by The Intercept through a Freedom of Information Act request.
- jandrese 3y ago
  Which also seems like a reasonable reason for the FBI to get involved. The discussion tends to veer into "this is politically motivated" territory, when the law enforcement angle is more in the "preventing death and destruction" category.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. Which is ridiculous, given that there have been two fire bombings claimed by pro-choice groups since 2010, one in NY and another in WI, vs. eighteen committed by anti-abortion groups. That, and the fact that anti-abortion violence is fairly common in the US, compared to pro-choice violence [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism-attacks-continue-at-pro-life-centers-across-us https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...
    - sbuk 3y ago
      Can we have another, unbiased source please. That one is state-sponsored and doesn't provide a credible source.
      - josephcsible 3y ago
        [flagged]
        sbuk 3y ago
        The Vatican is a state.
        josephcsible 3y ago
        Does the Vatican sponsor them just because they're Catholic? It looks like they're a purely US-based organization.
      - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
        That's not what "state sponsored" means. (I mean, yes, technically the Vatican is a state. It's still ridiculous to label everything Catholic as "state sponsored".)
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      While not insignificant overall, they are a drop in the bucket compared to violence against pro-choice. This is also a report on "vandalism", and I think we could all agree that aggravated battery and murder, are worse crimes, of which none has been committed by pro-choice groups.
      - pauldenton 3y ago
        Both sides seem to say the other side only encounters a drop in the bucket. Can you provide some data or source like the other guy did?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Do you have evidence of that?
robomartin 3y ago
What's interesting about this branch in the discussion is that assassinating anyone and firebombing anything are illegal criminal acts. The underlying reason should not matter to anyone. We already have laws to deal with this. The problem surfaces when one ideological faction is in power and chooses not to apply the laws --or be lenient-- to people who happen to be on their side of ideological spectrum. That's what drives a society into what is sometimes referred to as "banana republic" territory. Tolerating this behavior does not result in regulating society towards good outcomes. It's a feedback loop that gets more and more extreme with time. This is not how you build a society where people with different ideas can coexist in peace. The abortion debate is tough, and agreement --or a middle ground-- may never be reached. However, criminal behavior from any faction in the spectrum of ideas on this topic should not be tolerated at all. It should be punished to the full extent of current law, regardless of who is in power and who might be committing the criminal acts. And, more importantly, those in power --and the media-- must publicly and clearly characterize all criminal acts for what they are.
prepend 3y ago
> abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions What’s the prevalence of this occurring? Wikipedia calls out 7 in the US [0] with the most recent in 2015. This this seems like profiling protesters as assassins is about as rational as profiling members of a certain religion as terrorists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  Latest shooting of a Planned Parenthood clinic was in 2021. The fact that they haven't succeeded, doesn't mean that they haven't repeatedly tried.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  > What’s the prevalence of this occurring? Wikipedia calls out 7 in the US Your very own link says 11: > In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people Also, perhaps not assassination but violence makes things look far worse than you handwaving it as a non-issue: > there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers. Between 1977 and 1990, 77 death threats were made, with 250 made between 1991 and 1999. Attempted murders in the U.S. included: in 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity. > property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs"). (some overlap between both quotes).
  - prepend 3y ago
    > Your very own link says 11 Thanks for the correction, you’re right. I miscited the number in the 90s with the total number. 11 seems the most accurate for deaths of abortion healthcare workers. > hand waving Not at all. I think this is a serious issue and we should have zero murders. My point is that saying abortion protesters are assassins (or even violent) is not an accurate assumption based on the very low level of violence to protesters. I think we should use language and logic accurately even if we disagree with the cause. It’s not right to lump all abortion protestors with the criminals who harm healthcare workers just like it’s not right to lump all BLM protestors with rioters who burn stuff down or all followers of Islam with terrorists. The rates of non-violent to violent are different among all three groups but all extremely low. I’ll defend all three groups even though I’m against the first, for the second, and ambivalent to the third. But I don’t want to fall into the logical trap of getting sloppy with my generalizations because I want to stop a certain behavior.
pauldenton 3y ago
Unlike the assassin who showed up outside Kavanaughs door.
kelnos 3y ago
Ignoring whether your assertion is true or not for a second, solving this problem doesn't require violating anyone's constitutional rights.

zmgsabst 3y ago

In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. > Twitter, alerted a federal law enforcement agency to pro-abortion protests and rallies in the wake of the reversal of Roe v. Wade, according to documents obtained by The Intercept through a Freedom of Information Act request.

jandrese 3y ago
Which also seems like a reasonable reason for the FBI to get involved. The discussion tends to veer into "this is politically motivated" territory, when the law enforcement angle is more in the "preventing death and destruction" category.
manuelabeledo 3y ago
> In this case, the relevant fact is pro-abortion protestors have a habit of firebombing things. Which is ridiculous, given that there have been two fire bombings claimed by pro-choice groups since 2010, one in NY and another in WI, vs. eighteen committed by anti-abortion groups. That, and the fact that anti-abortion violence is fairly common in the US, compared to pro-choice violence [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
- zmgsabst 3y ago
  https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism-attacks-continue-at-pro-life-centers-across-us https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/251553/map-vandalism...
  - sbuk 3y ago
    Can we have another, unbiased source please. That one is state-sponsored and doesn't provide a credible source.
    - josephcsible 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - sbuk 3y ago
        The Vatican is a state.
        josephcsible 3y ago
        Does the Vatican sponsor them just because they're Catholic? It looks like they're a purely US-based organization.
    - AnimalMuppet 3y ago
      That's not what "state sponsored" means. (I mean, yes, technically the Vatican is a state. It's still ridiculous to label everything Catholic as "state sponsored".)
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    While not insignificant overall, they are a drop in the bucket compared to violence against pro-choice. This is also a report on "vandalism", and I think we could all agree that aggravated battery and murder, are worse crimes, of which none has been committed by pro-choice groups.
    - pauldenton 3y ago
      Both sides seem to say the other side only encounters a drop in the bucket. Can you provide some data or source like the other guy did?
wolverine876 3y ago
Do you have evidence of that?

robomartin 3y ago

What's interesting about this branch in the discussion is that assassinating anyone and firebombing anything are illegal criminal acts. The underlying reason should not matter to anyone. We already have laws to deal with this. The problem surfaces when one ideological faction is in power and chooses not to apply the laws --or be lenient-- to people who happen to be on their side of ideological spectrum. That's what drives a society into what is sometimes referred to as "banana republic" territory. Tolerating this behavior does not result in regulating society towards good outcomes. It's a feedback loop that gets more and more extreme with time. This is not how you build a society where people with different ideas can coexist in peace. The abortion debate is tough, and agreement --or a middle ground-- may never be reached. However, criminal behavior from any faction in the spectrum of ideas on this topic should not be tolerated at all. It should be punished to the full extent of current law, regardless of who is in power and who might be committing the criminal acts. And, more importantly, those in power --and the media-- must publicly and clearly characterize all criminal acts for what they are.

prepend 3y ago

> abortion protesters have a habit of assassinating doctors that perform abortions What’s the prevalence of this occurring? Wikipedia calls out 7 in the US [0] with the most recent in 2015. This this seems like profiling protesters as assassins is about as rational as profiling members of a certain religion as terrorists. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence

manuelabeledo 3y ago
Latest shooting of a Planned Parenthood clinic was in 2021. The fact that they haven't succeeded, doesn't mean that they haven't repeatedly tried.
FireBeyond 3y ago
> What’s the prevalence of this occurring? Wikipedia calls out 7 in the US Your very own link says 11: > In the United States, violence directed towards abortion providers has killed at least eleven people Also, perhaps not assassination but violence makes things look far worse than you handwaving it as a non-issue: > there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 13 wounded,100 butyric acid stink bomb attacks, 373 physical invasions, 41 bombings, 655 anthrax threats, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers. Between 1977 and 1990, 77 death threats were made, with 250 made between 1991 and 1999. Attempted murders in the U.S. included: in 1985 45% of clinics reported bomb threats, decreasing to 15% in 2000. One fifth of clinics in 2000 experienced some form of extreme activity. > property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs"). (some overlap between both quotes).
- prepend 3y ago
  > Your very own link says 11 Thanks for the correction, you’re right. I miscited the number in the 90s with the total number. 11 seems the most accurate for deaths of abortion healthcare workers. > hand waving Not at all. I think this is a serious issue and we should have zero murders. My point is that saying abortion protesters are assassins (or even violent) is not an accurate assumption based on the very low level of violence to protesters. I think we should use language and logic accurately even if we disagree with the cause. It’s not right to lump all abortion protestors with the criminals who harm healthcare workers just like it’s not right to lump all BLM protestors with rioters who burn stuff down or all followers of Islam with terrorists. The rates of non-violent to violent are different among all three groups but all extremely low. I’ll defend all three groups even though I’m against the first, for the second, and ambivalent to the third. But I don’t want to fall into the logical trap of getting sloppy with my generalizations because I want to stop a certain behavior.

pauldenton 3y ago

Unlike the assassin who showed up outside Kavanaughs door.

kelnos 3y ago

Ignoring whether your assertion is true or not for a second, solving this problem doesn't require violating anyone's constitutional rights.