4 ms·

I’m not sure what relevance this has for a secular nation like the United States.

by redeux 3y ago

localplume 3y ago
If you think any western country is actually secular then I have a bridge to sell you. christianity is woven into the very fabric of their culture. visit a cemetary and see crosses. listen to language and hear references to "christening", christian names, "this book is the x bible", expletives referencing "jesus christ", christmas, easter, the abundance of churches over any other site of worship.
- trasz4 3y ago
  Sure, but there's a fundamental difference between christianity in culture and promoting female genital mutilation or denying reproductive rights.
rayiner 3y ago
America isn’t a “secular” nation. It’s a religiously pluralistic nation. That means that all of the various non-falsifiable moral ideologies, from Christianity to Islam to secular humanism, are on equal political footing. If more people prioritize the mother’s invisible, non-falsifiable “right to bodily autonomy” over the fetus’s invisible, non-falsifiable “right to life” then you can permit abortion. If the opposite is true, you can ban it.
- redeux 3y ago
  > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof … The United States government, which is what we’re discussing is absolutely a secular body. The various religions or non-religions of the citizenry are irrelevant, constitutionally.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    The first part just means that Congress cannot regulate established state churches (https://live-bri-dos.pantheonsite.io/activities/handout-c-map-of-disestablishment-in-the-united-states https://live-bri-dos.pantheonsite.io/activities/handout-c-ma...), while the second states that Congress cannot prohibit people from practicing their religion. What the first amendment doesn’t do is exclude moral beliefs rooted in religion from being the basis of public policy. If the government can regulate conduct that kills living things, then it’s immaterial whether any particular legislation is rooted in the moral framework of Christianity or Islam or Feminism. In the American system, all moral frameworks, whether rooted in religion or not, are on equal footing. That’s distinct from secularism, as practiced by France and formerly Turkey, where religious philosophy is singled out and excluded from the public sphere.
    - defrost 3y ago
      > The first part just means that Congress cannot regulate established state churches Err, no, that's a common misunderstanding. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way. It's there to forbid the creation of an official state religion (eg: the Church of England being created to replace the Catholic church back in the day). See: https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom
  - kelnos 3y ago
    Regardless of what the constitution says, it's a little naive to think that US law (especially state law in many jurisdictions) isn't heavily influenced by religion, mostly that of various Christian sects.

I’m not sure what relevance this has for a secular nation like the United States.

by redeux 3y ago

I’m not sure what relevance this has for a secular nation like the United States.

If you think any western country is actually secular then I have a bridge to sell you. christianity is woven into the very fabric of their culture. visit a cemetary and see crosses. listen to language and hear references to "christening", christian names, "this book is the x bible", expletives referencing "jesus christ", christmas, easter, the abundance of churches over any other site of worship.

trasz4 3y ago
Sure, but there's a fundamental difference between christianity in culture and promoting female genital mutilation or denying reproductive rights.

rayiner 3y ago

America isn’t a “secular” nation. It’s a religiously pluralistic nation. That means that all of the various non-falsifiable moral ideologies, from Christianity to Islam to secular humanism, are on equal political footing. If more people prioritize the mother’s invisible, non-falsifiable “right to bodily autonomy” over the fetus’s invisible, non-falsifiable “right to life” then you can permit abortion. If the opposite is true, you can ban it.

redeux 3y ago
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof … The United States government, which is what we’re discussing is absolutely a secular body. The various religions or non-religions of the citizenry are irrelevant, constitutionally.
- rayiner 3y ago
  The first part just means that Congress cannot regulate established state churches (https://live-bri-dos.pantheonsite.io/activities/handout-c-map-of-disestablishment-in-the-united-states https://live-bri-dos.pantheonsite.io/activities/handout-c-ma...), while the second states that Congress cannot prohibit people from practicing their religion. What the first amendment doesn’t do is exclude moral beliefs rooted in religion from being the basis of public policy. If the government can regulate conduct that kills living things, then it’s immaterial whether any particular legislation is rooted in the moral framework of Christianity or Islam or Feminism. In the American system, all moral frameworks, whether rooted in religion or not, are on equal footing. That’s distinct from secularism, as practiced by France and formerly Turkey, where religious philosophy is singled out and excluded from the public sphere.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > The first part just means that Congress cannot regulate established state churches Err, no, that's a common misunderstanding. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment prohibits government from encouraging or promoting ("establishing") religion in any way. It's there to forbid the creation of an official state religion (eg: the Church of England being created to replace the Catholic church back in the day). See: https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom https://www.aclu.org/other/your-right-religious-freedom
- kelnos 3y ago
  Regardless of what the constitution says, it's a little naive to think that US law (especially state law in many jurisdictions) isn't heavily influenced by religion, mostly that of various Christian sects.