3 ms·

Nobody really benefits when the leading process node is being wasted by a walled garden company on, mostly, consumer laptops

natdempk 3y ago
The new nodes also typically go towards iPhones and tablets as well, and in total that's only hundreds of millions of people benefitting from improved devices, so yeah pretty much nobody.
- michaelsshaw 3y ago
  How improved though? iPhones are already pretty fast. I don't know about you, but i've never compiled a kernel on my phone. Having a faster, actual workstation grade computer would be better. But yeah you're right, sarcasm is the right approach.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    There's also energy consumption.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      Yep, reducing energy consumption and boosting performance per watt seems to be one of Apple’s main focuses, and for most people buying phones, tablets, and laptops that’s probably the correct choice — while raw perf is nice computers have been “fast enough” for a long time. People who only browse the web need barely more than a Core 2 Duo, even now, and most devs and media professionals will find an M1 Pro to fill their needs somewhere between reasonably and very well. You know what almost nobody will turn down though? Laptops that are cool to the touch and rarely need to spin up fans and all manner of battery powered device that lasts longer, even doing “real” work. Of course there will always be those who need the fastest big iron they can find and don’t care if they have to feed it 2000W and cool it a 15lb heatsink with ear piercing fans, but this group is comparatively niche.
  - iknowstuff 3y ago
    Haha yes compiling a kernel should be the focus. Forget all the advancements in instant computational photography, on-device voice recognition and Siri, 4K HDR 60fps stabilized videos, 120Hz retina screens running perfectly smooth animations on an all day lasting battery, because neckbeards can't compile a kernel
    - michaelsshaw 3y ago
      Using faster computer chips to make faster computers, rather than Apple products, should be the focus, yes.
      - taylodl 3y ago
        Apple's phone, tablet, laptop, and desktop products are computers. And they're making them faster, apparently. I would argue the phone is where the focus should be since that's the primary computer for many people around the world.
        freedomben 3y ago
        I think GP's point is not that apple's products aren't computers (they are of course, although Apple themselves has been positioning them less as general purpose computers and more as appliances, especially ios devices), but that it only runs/benefits apple's walled garden system. If it was open hardware it could benefit computers in general no matter what OS you run, whether embedded and tiny or huge gaming workstation.
        ksec 3y ago
        But it is not that only Apple gets to enjoy it, Other computer system do as well. Just a year later. Or any time other competitor are willing to pay up.
    - hardware2win 3y ago
      Whats the difference between taking photos/videos on a phone from 2018 and cutting edge?
eptcyka 3y ago
Laptops? Phones and tablets.
- michaelsshaw 3y ago
  Yeah, definitely more of these (which is even more of a waste), I was more just thinking about myself :)
goalieca 3y ago
Apple is giving some pretty funding guarantees TSMC. The rest of the industry will certainly benefit.
steve_taylor 3y ago
It's holding back Skynet.
PragmaticPulp 3y ago
> Nobody really benefits when the leading process node is being wasted by a walled garden company on, mostly, consumer laptops I would say consumers benefit if the leading process node is used on them, wouldn’t you? I don’t understand the problem. The most efficient processes are always dedicated to mobile devices where the premium is worth it.
neogodless 3y ago
There's a very common mindset that you only "benefit" if you have the latest, best "thing." There are so many ways to benefit. I've never owned an Apple product in my life! And yet, I own an AMD CPU that was built on a TSMC process. I feel like that benefits me. Would that TSMC process be as good if they didn't have Apple as a customer? Maybe not. I don't know for sure - it's not something I obsess over. It would be different if the products you could buy outside of Apple were actually bad. (And for some people who want fanless Apple Silicon, a lot of laptop alternatives are bad, but for my needs, both desktops and laptops with fans are fulfilling my needs and wants.)
- freedomben 3y ago
  I don't necessarily disagree with you, I think you're much more right than wrong, but there is a loser in it. anecdotal observation from talking to coworkers, I know several people who have switched to macs for the apple silicon because of their speed/power efficiency. That's obviously not just 3nm at play, but yes there are definite losers in this race. Also if one takes the approach that an apple user pulled in to their walled garden is a net bad for the industry at large, it's not just a short term problem but also long term as well.

natdempk 3y ago

The new nodes also typically go towards iPhones and tablets as well, and in total that's only hundreds of millions of people benefitting from improved devices, so yeah pretty much nobody.

michaelsshaw 3y ago
How improved though? iPhones are already pretty fast. I don't know about you, but i've never compiled a kernel on my phone. Having a faster, actual workstation grade computer would be better. But yeah you're right, sarcasm is the right approach.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  There's also energy consumption.
  - kitsunesoba 3y ago
    Yep, reducing energy consumption and boosting performance per watt seems to be one of Apple’s main focuses, and for most people buying phones, tablets, and laptops that’s probably the correct choice — while raw perf is nice computers have been “fast enough” for a long time. People who only browse the web need barely more than a Core 2 Duo, even now, and most devs and media professionals will find an M1 Pro to fill their needs somewhere between reasonably and very well. You know what almost nobody will turn down though? Laptops that are cool to the touch and rarely need to spin up fans and all manner of battery powered device that lasts longer, even doing “real” work. Of course there will always be those who need the fastest big iron they can find and don’t care if they have to feed it 2000W and cool it a 15lb heatsink with ear piercing fans, but this group is comparatively niche.
- iknowstuff 3y ago
  Haha yes compiling a kernel should be the focus. Forget all the advancements in instant computational photography, on-device voice recognition and Siri, 4K HDR 60fps stabilized videos, 120Hz retina screens running perfectly smooth animations on an all day lasting battery, because neckbeards can't compile a kernel
  - michaelsshaw 3y ago
    Using faster computer chips to make faster computers, rather than Apple products, should be the focus, yes.
    - taylodl 3y ago
      Apple's phone, tablet, laptop, and desktop products are computers. And they're making them faster, apparently. I would argue the phone is where the focus should be since that's the primary computer for many people around the world.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        I think GP's point is not that apple's products aren't computers (they are of course, although Apple themselves has been positioning them less as general purpose computers and more as appliances, especially ios devices), but that it only runs/benefits apple's walled garden system. If it was open hardware it could benefit computers in general no matter what OS you run, whether embedded and tiny or huge gaming workstation.
        ksec 3y ago
        But it is not that only Apple gets to enjoy it, Other computer system do as well. Just a year later. Or any time other competitor are willing to pay up.
  - hardware2win 3y ago
    Whats the difference between taking photos/videos on a phone from 2018 and cutting edge?

eptcyka 3y ago

Laptops? Phones and tablets.

michaelsshaw 3y ago
Yeah, definitely more of these (which is even more of a waste), I was more just thinking about myself :)

goalieca 3y ago

Apple is giving some pretty funding guarantees TSMC. The rest of the industry will certainly benefit.

steve_taylor 3y ago

It's holding back Skynet.

PragmaticPulp 3y ago

> Nobody really benefits when the leading process node is being wasted by a walled garden company on, mostly, consumer laptops I would say consumers benefit if the leading process node is used on them, wouldn’t you? I don’t understand the problem. The most efficient processes are always dedicated to mobile devices where the premium is worth it.

neogodless 3y ago

There's a very common mindset that you only "benefit" if you have the latest, best "thing." There are so many ways to benefit. I've never owned an Apple product in my life! And yet, I own an AMD CPU that was built on a TSMC process. I feel like that benefits me. Would that TSMC process be as good if they didn't have Apple as a customer? Maybe not. I don't know for sure - it's not something I obsess over. It would be different if the products you could buy outside of Apple were actually bad. (And for some people who want fanless Apple Silicon, a lot of laptop alternatives are bad, but for my needs, both desktops and laptops with fans are fulfilling my needs and wants.)

freedomben 3y ago
I don't necessarily disagree with you, I think you're much more right than wrong, but there is a loser in it. anecdotal observation from talking to coworkers, I know several people who have switched to macs for the apple silicon because of their speed/power efficiency. That's obviously not just 3nm at play, but yes there are definite losers in this race. Also if one takes the approach that an apple user pulled in to their walled garden is a net bad for the industry at large, it's not just a short term problem but also long term as well.