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I get: "The dog species typically has two sexes: male and female." UPDATE: OK I signed up for Bard to try it, too, and it indeed did mention intersex dogs (TIL

by veidr 3y ago

I get: "The dog species typically has two sexes: male and female." UPDATE: OK I signed up for Bard to try it, too, and it indeed did mention intersex dogs (TIL) and gender (complete response below). After reading it all, though, I found it pretty reasonable: --- Biologically, dogs have two sexes: male and female. This is determined by their chromosomes. Males have XY chromosomes, while females have XX chromosomes. These chromosomes determine the development of the reproductive organs and other sex-specific traits. However, there are some dogs that are intersex. This means that they have both male and female reproductive organs. Intersex dogs are very rare, and they can be born with a variety of different combinations of male and female sex organs. In addition to biological sex, there is also gender. Gender is a social construct that refers to the roles, behaviors, and identities that are associated with being male or female. Gender is not determined by biology, but rather by culture and society. Dogs do not have a concept of gender in the same way that humans do. They do not understand the social roles and expectations that are associated with being male or female. However, dogs can still express gender identity. This is the internal sense of being male or female. Some dogs may express their gender identity through their behavior, such as the way they interact with other dogs or the way they groom themselves. It is important to remember that sex and gender are two different things. Sex is determined by biology, while gender is a social construct. Dogs have two sexes, but they can express a variety of different genders.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
<< Sex is determined by biology, while gender is a social construct. Are you saying that gender is honorific of sorts?
- SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
  Gender is an individual's perception of (among other things) their sex. Sex is which chromosomes they have. For most mammals, that's XX for females, XY for males, or any of the (rare) aneuplodic sex chromosomal abnormalities like Kleinfelter syndrome (XXY, e.g. male calico cats), or (rarely viable) chimeric individuals where two embryos fused in the womb. For some mammals (a few bat & rat species), most arachnids, and many insects that's XX for female and just a lone X for male, and any aneuplodic abnormalities of the sex chromosomes that aren't fatal result in an abnormal female. For birds, most reptiles, some insects, some fish, some crustaceans, and some plants, that's ZW for female & ZZ for male, with similar complications to the XY system. Sex is pretty simple. The vast majority of the time for humans, it's either XX or XY. Which (primary and secondary) sex organs someone has is more complicated, because that can be altered. But it's still pretty simple, if not always what one would expect from the chromosomal sex. Gender is complicated, because it's entirely social. It's not entirely clear which animals even have gender. Sexual attraction is also complicated. The factors which determine it aren't well understood.
  - kgwgk 3y ago
    Gender is an individual's perception of which chromosomes they have (among other things)?
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      But can you have a perception of how many hands you have? It is an interesting question to me.
      - euler5050 3y ago
        Yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb
        A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        Thank you! I sometimes forget how amazing human brain can be.
    - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
      For most people indirectly, but yes. Whether you feel "male" or "female" is a core aspect of gender, and "being male" means having XY chromosomes, while "being female" means having XX. Physical sex organs & hormone production also tend to play into gender but aren't necessarily as fundamental: women don't stop being female after they go through menopause or have a hysterectomy. But females can feel that they should have been born male (and likewise the reverse), and can undergo hormone replacement, gender reassignment surgery, and act to comply with the societal norms for men. They'd still be female, but they'd be men. Man & woman are genders, male & female are sexes. Of course for the vast majority of people their gender matches their sex. And it matches the sex hormones they produce, their sex organs, etc. We don't directly perceive our chromosomes, but we do perceive their effects, and those effects usually align with our gender.
kardianos 3y ago
Thanks for posting the full Bard response. I would object to it on two grounds: 1) I only asked about sex. 2) The following is highly questionable: "However, dogs can still express gender identity." This is ideological BS. My kids are either male or female, no matter how they choose to express themselves (as are my dogs). When I've had chickens, the roosters had different behavior then the hens, this is an aspect of secondary sexual characteristics (not a gender identity). In my own ideology there, there is no such thing as gender identity, only biological sex, secondary sexual traits, and a person's individual personality. Nothing else actually exists.
- geraldwhen 3y ago
  It is truly remarkable that some can note that in every animal, the males and females have different behaviors and preferences, but when it comes to humans, all logic is out the window. It feels very much like religion to hold humans on a magical pedestal where the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    > very much like religion to hold humans on a magical pedestal where the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans Well .. yes? Isn't it a major premise of most religions that humans are different, and are in some way connected with the divine, and in particular have consciousness that obliges us to use our thoughts rather than our instincts? That we might probe the universe for its physical rules, and attempt to determine moral rules for ourselves? Or that the rule that applies to animals, that you can kill and eat them if you like, does not apply to humans?
  - amluto 3y ago
    What rules that apply to animals? There is plenty of homosexual behavior in animals. According to Wikipedia, there even seem to be animals (sheep) that are homosexual individuals. There are apparently intersex animals. There are certainly many male animals castrated at a young age that have markedly different behavior as adults. We humans have aspects of gender identity (pink vs blue, for example) that most non-human animals lack the technology or inclination to develop even if they wanted to. Sure, male ducks often have lots of green feathers. But do they wear green because they identify as male? Of course not, because they don’t choose their color scheme! (And remember that pink hasn’t been a girl color for all that long.) Humans have the fascinating property that you can ask them about their sexuality, gender identity, etc, and they might actually answer the question! I wonder how much of the apparent exceptionality of humans this accounts for. > the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans. If you observe a room full of small human children and conclude that the “the males and females have different behaviors and preferences” and that this is anywhere near sufficient to explain the behavior of said small children, then you’ve either found a highly unusual group, or you’ve found a group where someone else is fairly aggressively imposing gender identities on them, or you simply aren’t paying attention.
caskstrength 3y ago
> OK I signed up for Bard to try it, too, and it indeed did mention intersex dogs (TIL) and gender (complete response below). After reading it all, though, I found it pretty reasonable I'm not sure that gratuitous patronizing part about "It is important to remember that sex and gender are two different things..." is considered "reasonable" anywhere outside some particular set of US coastal cities.

by veidr 3y ago

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

<< Sex is determined by biology, while gender is a social construct. Are you saying that gender is honorific of sorts?

SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
Gender is an individual's perception of (among other things) their sex. Sex is which chromosomes they have. For most mammals, that's XX for females, XY for males, or any of the (rare) aneuplodic sex chromosomal abnormalities like Kleinfelter syndrome (XXY, e.g. male calico cats), or (rarely viable) chimeric individuals where two embryos fused in the womb. For some mammals (a few bat & rat species), most arachnids, and many insects that's XX for female and just a lone X for male, and any aneuplodic abnormalities of the sex chromosomes that aren't fatal result in an abnormal female. For birds, most reptiles, some insects, some fish, some crustaceans, and some plants, that's ZW for female & ZZ for male, with similar complications to the XY system. Sex is pretty simple. The vast majority of the time for humans, it's either XX or XY. Which (primary and secondary) sex organs someone has is more complicated, because that can be altered. But it's still pretty simple, if not always what one would expect from the chromosomal sex. Gender is complicated, because it's entirely social. It's not entirely clear which animals even have gender. Sexual attraction is also complicated. The factors which determine it aren't well understood.
- kgwgk 3y ago
  Gender is an individual's perception of which chromosomes they have (among other things)?
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    But can you have a perception of how many hands you have? It is an interesting question to me.
    - euler5050 3y ago
      Yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_limb
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        Thank you! I sometimes forget how amazing human brain can be.
  - SAI_Peregrinus 3y ago
    For most people indirectly, but yes. Whether you feel "male" or "female" is a core aspect of gender, and "being male" means having XY chromosomes, while "being female" means having XX. Physical sex organs & hormone production also tend to play into gender but aren't necessarily as fundamental: women don't stop being female after they go through menopause or have a hysterectomy. But females can feel that they should have been born male (and likewise the reverse), and can undergo hormone replacement, gender reassignment surgery, and act to comply with the societal norms for men. They'd still be female, but they'd be men. Man & woman are genders, male & female are sexes. Of course for the vast majority of people their gender matches their sex. And it matches the sex hormones they produce, their sex organs, etc. We don't directly perceive our chromosomes, but we do perceive their effects, and those effects usually align with our gender.

kardianos 3y ago

Thanks for posting the full Bard response. I would object to it on two grounds: 1) I only asked about sex. 2) The following is highly questionable: "However, dogs can still express gender identity." This is ideological BS. My kids are either male or female, no matter how they choose to express themselves (as are my dogs). When I've had chickens, the roosters had different behavior then the hens, this is an aspect of secondary sexual characteristics (not a gender identity). In my own ideology there, there is no such thing as gender identity, only biological sex, secondary sexual traits, and a person's individual personality. Nothing else actually exists.

geraldwhen 3y ago
It is truly remarkable that some can note that in every animal, the males and females have different behaviors and preferences, but when it comes to humans, all logic is out the window. It feels very much like religion to hold humans on a magical pedestal where the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans.
- pjc50 3y ago
  > very much like religion to hold humans on a magical pedestal where the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans Well .. yes? Isn't it a major premise of most religions that humans are different, and are in some way connected with the divine, and in particular have consciousness that obliges us to use our thoughts rather than our instincts? That we might probe the universe for its physical rules, and attempt to determine moral rules for ourselves? Or that the rule that applies to animals, that you can kill and eat them if you like, does not apply to humans?
- amluto 3y ago
  What rules that apply to animals? There is plenty of homosexual behavior in animals. According to Wikipedia, there even seem to be animals (sheep) that are homosexual individuals. There are apparently intersex animals. There are certainly many male animals castrated at a young age that have markedly different behavior as adults. We humans have aspects of gender identity (pink vs blue, for example) that most non-human animals lack the technology or inclination to develop even if they wanted to. Sure, male ducks often have lots of green feathers. But do they wear green because they identify as male? Of course not, because they don’t choose their color scheme! (And remember that pink hasn’t been a girl color for all that long.) Humans have the fascinating property that you can ask them about their sexuality, gender identity, etc, and they might actually answer the question! I wonder how much of the apparent exceptionality of humans this accounts for. > the rules that apply to animals suddenly cease when applied to humans. If you observe a room full of small human children and conclude that the “the males and females have different behaviors and preferences” and that this is anywhere near sufficient to explain the behavior of said small children, then you’ve either found a highly unusual group, or you’ve found a group where someone else is fairly aggressively imposing gender identities on them, or you simply aren’t paying attention.

caskstrength 3y ago

> OK I signed up for Bard to try it, too, and it indeed did mention intersex dogs (TIL) and gender (complete response below). After reading it all, though, I found it pretty reasonable I'm not sure that gratuitous patronizing part about "It is important to remember that sex and gender are two different things..." is considered "reasonable" anywhere outside some particular set of US coastal cities.