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> Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong There are plenty who be

> Same reason why so many people do the same to children - they're set in their views and are unwilling accept that they might be wrong There are plenty who believe that withdrawing privileges is an entirely normal and appropriate response when children misbehave. This isn't punishment, although some children consider it to be.

iepathos 3y ago
Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Withdrawing privileges is an imposed penalty. idk if it's appropriate or not, but it's objectively punishment not just an opinion children have.
- throwaway173738 3y ago
  It’s called negative punishment, and is pretty ineffective at eliciting the desired behavior. Positive reinforcement is the only way to spotlight the behavior you want by rewarding it. Punishment is more like learning the shape of a room by stubbing your toes on the walls. You’ll eventually get it but only after trying everything else you can think of.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > It’s called negative punishment It isn't: "[..] people confuse negative reinforcement with punishment, but these are two different concepts"[0] [0] https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-reinforcement-in-parenting https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-...
    - pseudalopex 3y ago
      "Negative punishment is taking something pleasurable away to decrease the behavior. An example of negative punishment is taking away a toy if your child hits their sibling with it."
- logifail 3y ago
  > Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Children are not small adults, but they are surprisingly capable of understanding incentives. "If you behave well you can have ice cream. If you behave badly, you don't get ice cream. It's your choice." It's awful to teach children that behaviour doesn't matter. Actions do have consequences.
  - Ensorceled 3y ago
    This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences". You can't just redefine it as "not punishment" because you want to use that method in child rearing.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences" "Actions have consequences" as a statement isn't really up for much debate, it's more of a observation on how the universe works. If we fall far enough, we hurt outselves. Gravity isn't punishing us when we fall, even if it may feel like that at times - the scars on my right arm from a cycling accident last year are still visible.
      - Ensorceled 3y ago
        "Actions have consequences" is explaining why you are punishing your child. I'm not saying you're a bad parent for punishing your child, I'm saying you could be a better parent if you stopped leaning on punishment as a parenting tool. Also, stop telling your child you aren't punishing them because they will ALWAYS remember that bullshit. At least own up to the fact that you are punishing them and tell them why.
afterburner 3y ago
Telling a child they're not being punished as you punish them is gaslighting.
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  "It's for your own good so it's not punishment." It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through Our eldest had his computer briefly confiscated not that long ago. He was, of course, cross with me when it happened. The day afterwards he came to me and thanked me for taking it away(!) Him: "I was spending way too much time playing games, I see that now" Me: "You're welcome to have it back" Him: "No, I'm not sure I want it in my room. It's too much of a distraction"

iepathos 3y ago

Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Withdrawing privileges is an imposed penalty. idk if it's appropriate or not, but it's objectively punishment not just an opinion children have.

throwaway173738 3y ago
It’s called negative punishment, and is pretty ineffective at eliciting the desired behavior. Positive reinforcement is the only way to spotlight the behavior you want by rewarding it. Punishment is more like learning the shape of a room by stubbing your toes on the walls. You’ll eventually get it but only after trying everything else you can think of.
- logifail 3y ago
  > It’s called negative punishment It isn't: "[..] people confuse negative reinforcement with punishment, but these are two different concepts"[0] [0] https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-reinforcement-in-parenting https://www.webmd.com/parenting/what-to-know-about-negative-...
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    "Negative punishment is taking something pleasurable away to decrease the behavior. An example of negative punishment is taking away a toy if your child hits their sibling with it."
logifail 3y ago
> Actually, it's the definition of punishment: inflicting or imposing penalties as retribution for an offense. Children are not small adults, but they are surprisingly capable of understanding incentives. "If you behave well you can have ice cream. If you behave badly, you don't get ice cream. It's your choice." It's awful to teach children that behaviour doesn't matter. Actions do have consequences.
- Ensorceled 3y ago
  This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences". You can't just redefine it as "not punishment" because you want to use that method in child rearing.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > This is still punishment, even if you believe it's for their own good that "actions do have consequences" "Actions have consequences" as a statement isn't really up for much debate, it's more of a observation on how the universe works. If we fall far enough, we hurt outselves. Gravity isn't punishing us when we fall, even if it may feel like that at times - the scars on my right arm from a cycling accident last year are still visible.
    - Ensorceled 3y ago
      "Actions have consequences" is explaining why you are punishing your child. I'm not saying you're a bad parent for punishing your child, I'm saying you could be a better parent if you stopped leaning on punishment as a parenting tool. Also, stop telling your child you aren't punishing them because they will ALWAYS remember that bullshit. At least own up to the fact that you are punishing them and tell them why.

afterburner 3y ago

Telling a child they're not being punished as you punish them is gaslighting.

Ensorceled 3y ago
"It's for your own good so it's not punishment." It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through.
- logifail 3y ago
  > It is amazing the mental hoops people can jump through Our eldest had his computer briefly confiscated not that long ago. He was, of course, cross with me when it happened. The day afterwards he came to me and thanked me for taking it away(!) Him: "I was spending way too much time playing games, I see that now" Me: "You're welcome to have it back" Him: "No, I'm not sure I want it in my room. It's too much of a distraction"