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As a parent who has had to do a bunch of this work, I think a big missing piece in much of the dialogue around it is understanding how exactly the “gentle” styl

As a parent who has had to do a bunch of this work, I think a big missing piece in much of the dialogue around it is understanding how exactly the “gentle” style of engagement isn’t just indulging, tolerating, excusing, and even rewarding bad behaviour. The official word is that adopting a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries, but it’s often very unclear how to differentiate between which part of the response to a given situation should be the boundary (“we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way”) vs the emotional deep dive (“it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you”). Instead of engaging with the truly challenging parts of the approach, a lot of advocates model kind of what’s in the parent post— condescension, dismissal, and an assumption that the other party is simply unable or unwilling to learn how to do something that’s obviously superior.

kevviiinn 3y ago
I think what the OP was getting at is perfectly exemplified in this comment. A person who is set in their ways and unable to comprehend the emotional state of another being, just viewing the resulting behaviors as purely "bad"
- mikepurvis 3y ago
  At risk of attacking a straw man, do you believe it's ever possible to have a "bad" behaviour? When an adult throws a temper tantrum to an airplane stewardess, is that also something we should look on with "comprehension of another being's emotional state", or is it in fact entitlement, selfishness, poor regulation, and unrealistic expectations? Is that behaviour something we can agree on as being "bad"? I think that some of this debate comes down to what the ultimate purpose of parenting is— is it to be an eternal safe space for our kids? Somewhere that they can always feel understood and welcomed and heard, where they'll never be asked to consider if their feelings reflect an accurate perception of the world, whether their attitudes have shaped how they experience certain situations, or if their own words and actions have helped create a circumstance they're now frustrated by? Or is parenting about preparing kids to ultimately become citizens of the real world, where teachers, colleagues, bosses, neighbours, doctors, police, airline staff and others will require a certain standard of behaviour and will have basically zero interest in whatever your "reasons" are for why that standard cannot be met at a particular moment. In truth, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The best parents can both be that safe and listening space, while also gently challenging us to grow and do better (yes, even into adulthood). But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates, who sound much more hard-line, casting non-believers as being "set in their ways", and often responding pretty negatively to parents' fatigue with the extremely exhausting work that it can be constantly taking on and processing the emotions of everyone around them. On the other hand, there are now a bunch of voices calling for a more balanced approach than what one might find on Instagram and Tiktok: - https://mashable.com/article/gentle-parenting-social-media-problems https://mashable.com/article/gentle-parenting-social-media-p... - https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/style/gentle-parenting-is-harder-than-it-looks/ https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/style/gen... - https://filterfreeparents.com/gentle-parenting-is-physically-and-mentally-exhausting-for-parents-new-to-this-concept/ https://filterfreeparents.com/gentle-parenting-is-physically... - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/13/style/millennial-earnest-parenting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/13/style/millennial-earnest-...
  - FrankyHollywood 3y ago
    > But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates I see friends taking parenting courses, and raising their kids 'by the rules'. It seems so mechanical, and, from the behavior I see it isn't working very well either, just and endless battle against 'the rules'. My kids are a bit older now, and looking back I see intuition is important in raising kids. You know your own boundaries, and can be strict about them, but you also love your kids, and can even enjoy and laugh seeing them push against rules and discovering their the world. A nice read on this is 'French children don't throw food' [1] Trusting yourself and your kids makes you less likely to be angry or scream at them. I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/20/french-children-food-pamela-druckerman https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/20/french-childre...
    - thanatropism 3y ago
      > I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you. My current working theory is that toddler temper tantrums are this. I mean from the opposite direction; the kid is not on solid footing yet and doesn't think the grownups take them seriously enough. For the longest while we were making the utmost effort to do the respectful parenting thing, but as he's growing to have very strong opinions that are not always reasonable, this is... harder.
      - FrankyHollywood 3y ago
        Oh yes this is hard... When the kid has a strong opinion, raises voice or just tries to lure you into a discussion or fight. That's the moment where the parent is easily tricked. Staying calm in such a moment can do wonders and de-escalate, but it's hard, especially when I'm tired and need a moment of quiet :)
  - kevviiinn 3y ago
    I find it rather strange that you conflate the emotional state of a human whose brain is still rapidly developing with that of an adult. You can't possibly believe that those two things are even close to comparable
sidewndr46 3y ago
The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  I think it is an in-depth activity, actually. I can’t recall a single time in my childhood where my being defiant, tardy, intentionally boundary pushing, fighting people or otherwise annoyingly rebellious has been responded to with asking what are my feelings that are making me want to do that behavior. I’m just told to quit it or $punishment.
- SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
  > The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. I would argue that the "emotional deep dive" example is not merely asking how someone is feeling. > it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.
  - brudgers 3y ago
    In some families, conversations are weaponized. The question might feel belittling because it is used used to belittle. Questions often reflect status relationships where some people have the privilege to expect answers and thus carry a demeanor of expecting answers to their questions. Questions are used as a reminder that the other person is obligated to answer.
    - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
      Well, you might be somewhat right, but that sort of talk never came from my parents. It always came from authority figures at school or summer camps.
  - throwaway646465 3y ago
brudgers 3y ago
I had to work on this alot too because my chi...well all happy families are alike but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries, To me, a strong sense of self if probably more useful. Establishing boundaries presumes an expertise that doesn't exist. Parenting is learned on the job. Learned over the better part of a lifetime. Or all of it since we learn parenting by being parented as children...from people who were learning on the job. we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way Are you prepared to walk the walk and kick your child out of the family for responding with "fuck you"? Never mind that withholding conversation from a child is punishment? "Please don't talk to me like that. I don't like it," is the simplest thing that might work. It's also a good way to talk to other people. Because human relationships boil down to a good will, negotiation, or violence. Boundaries bound operating on goodwill.

kevviiinn 3y ago

I think what the OP was getting at is perfectly exemplified in this comment. A person who is set in their ways and unable to comprehend the emotional state of another being, just viewing the resulting behaviors as purely "bad"

mikepurvis 3y ago
At risk of attacking a straw man, do you believe it's ever possible to have a "bad" behaviour? When an adult throws a temper tantrum to an airplane stewardess, is that also something we should look on with "comprehension of another being's emotional state", or is it in fact entitlement, selfishness, poor regulation, and unrealistic expectations? Is that behaviour something we can agree on as being "bad"? I think that some of this debate comes down to what the ultimate purpose of parenting is— is it to be an eternal safe space for our kids? Somewhere that they can always feel understood and welcomed and heard, where they'll never be asked to consider if their feelings reflect an accurate perception of the world, whether their attitudes have shaped how they experience certain situations, or if their own words and actions have helped create a circumstance they're now frustrated by? Or is parenting about preparing kids to ultimately become citizens of the real world, where teachers, colleagues, bosses, neighbours, doctors, police, airline staff and others will require a certain standard of behaviour and will have basically zero interest in whatever your "reasons" are for why that standard cannot be met at a particular moment. In truth, the answer is somewhere in the middle. The best parents can both be that safe and listening space, while also gently challenging us to grow and do better (yes, even into adulthood). But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates, who sound much more hard-line, casting non-believers as being "set in their ways", and often responding pretty negatively to parents' fatigue with the extremely exhausting work that it can be constantly taking on and processing the emotions of everyone around them. On the other hand, there are now a bunch of voices calling for a more balanced approach than what one might find on Instagram and Tiktok: - https://mashable.com/article/gentle-parenting-social-media-problems https://mashable.com/article/gentle-parenting-social-media-p... - https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/style/gentle-parenting-is-harder-than-it-looks/ https://www.parents.com/parenting/better-parenting/style/gen... - https://filterfreeparents.com/gentle-parenting-is-physically-and-mentally-exhausting-for-parents-new-to-this-concept/ https://filterfreeparents.com/gentle-parenting-is-physically... - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/13/style/millennial-earnest-parenting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/13/style/millennial-earnest-...
- FrankyHollywood 3y ago
  > But I don't see a lot of that nuance from many gentle parenting advocates I see friends taking parenting courses, and raising their kids 'by the rules'. It seems so mechanical, and, from the behavior I see it isn't working very well either, just and endless battle against 'the rules'. My kids are a bit older now, and looking back I see intuition is important in raising kids. You know your own boundaries, and can be strict about them, but you also love your kids, and can even enjoy and laugh seeing them push against rules and discovering their the world. A nice read on this is 'French children don't throw food' [1] Trusting yourself and your kids makes you less likely to be angry or scream at them. I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/20/french-children-food-pamela-druckerman https://www.theguardian.com/books/2012/jan/20/french-childre...
  - thanatropism 3y ago
    > I found raising your voice in many cases just means you don't trust yourself and you don't trust that your kids respect you. My current working theory is that toddler temper tantrums are this. I mean from the opposite direction; the kid is not on solid footing yet and doesn't think the grownups take them seriously enough. For the longest while we were making the utmost effort to do the respectful parenting thing, but as he's growing to have very strong opinions that are not always reasonable, this is... harder.
    - FrankyHollywood 3y ago
      Oh yes this is hard... When the kid has a strong opinion, raises voice or just tries to lure you into a discussion or fight. That's the moment where the parent is easily tricked. Staying calm in such a moment can do wonders and de-escalate, but it's hard, especially when I'm tired and need a moment of quiet :)
- kevviiinn 3y ago
  I find it rather strange that you conflate the emotional state of a human whose brain is still rapidly developing with that of an adult. You can't possibly believe that those two things are even close to comparable

sidewndr46 3y ago

The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. Asking a family member how they are feeling should not be considered an in-depth activity.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
I think it is an in-depth activity, actually. I can’t recall a single time in my childhood where my being defiant, tardy, intentionally boundary pushing, fighting people or otherwise annoyingly rebellious has been responded to with asking what are my feelings that are making me want to do that behavior. I’m just told to quit it or $punishment.
SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
> The idea that asking someone how they are feeling is an "emotional deep dive" is a portion of the problem. I would argue that the "emotional deep dive" example is not merely asking how someone is feeling. > it sounds like you’re processing some big feelings right now, let’s talk about what’s going on for you Speaking from experience when I was a kid, being spoken to in this manner always felt belittling.
- brudgers 3y ago
  In some families, conversations are weaponized. The question might feel belittling because it is used used to belittle. Questions often reflect status relationships where some people have the privilege to expect answers and thus carry a demeanor of expecting answers to their questions. Questions are used as a reminder that the other person is obligated to answer.
  - SpaghettiCthulu 3y ago
    Well, you might be somewhat right, but that sort of talk never came from my parents. It always came from authority figures at school or summer camps.
- throwaway646465 3y ago

brudgers 3y ago

I had to work on this alot too because my chi...well all happy families are alike but each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way. a gentle and emotionally aware stance has to be paired with a strong sense of boundaries, To me, a strong sense of self if probably more useful. Establishing boundaries presumes an expertise that doesn't exist. Parenting is learned on the job. Learned over the better part of a lifetime. Or all of it since we learn parenting by being parented as children...from people who were learning on the job. we don’t speak like that in this family; I won’t be responding until you talk to me in a respectful way Are you prepared to walk the walk and kick your child out of the family for responding with "fuck you"? Never mind that withholding conversation from a child is punishment? "Please don't talk to me like that. I don't like it," is the simplest thing that might work. It's also a good way to talk to other people. Because human relationships boil down to a good will, negotiation, or violence. Boundaries bound operating on goodwill.