5 ms·

People should still report to the relevant authorities when churches do political speech. If nothing else it would keep them from actually saying "You must vot

by afiori 3y ago

People should still report to the relevant authorities when churches do political speech. If nothing else it would keep them from actually saying "You must vote for X" and diplaying electoral posters. It could even happen that somebody high in a decision chain ends up claiming "we don't care they can do whatever they want" which could be a minor scalndal.

Timon3 3y ago
What if the authorities don't mind the churches doing so? It seems like, especially leading up to elections, you see videos of this almost every day. How can someone actually make sure that some consequences happen?
- kashunstva 3y ago
  > How can someone actually make sure that some consequences happen? You can’t, because the IRS steadfastly refuses to pursue these violations. I’m an active lifetime member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation; and through our organization these near-constant occurrences of political endorsement by churches have been reported numerous times. To no avail. To make matters worse, clergy in the U.S. often receive a large portion of their income as a housing allowance which is not taxable, as I understand it. But the majority of course still take their mortgage interest deduction. It’s a racket.
  - xupybd 3y ago
    I know several church ministers. They work hard and get paid very little. Maybe the tax payer should not be subsidizing them but to say it's a racket is not fair. Some celebrity church leaders live lives of luxury but the average needs the tax breaks just to survive.
    - reaperman 3y ago
      > the average needs the tax breaks just to survive. The question becomes: Are the umbrella organizations paying the ministers just the bare minimum to keep them on? So if the tax breaks are stopped, will the church organization cover the new difference, or lose the ministers? It might still be a racket where the ministers are also getting screwed. The benefit of the tax breaks may not go to the minister who receives the tax break, but instead benefit the archdiocese/convention/council/conference/synod/assembly/convocation/etc who pays
      - bombcar 3y ago
        For those outside the USA they may be surprised just how many churches in the USA are effectively independent franchises with no real central authority. People think of “Catholic Church” as the large multinational agency, but when you hear people talking about churches in the USA it’s often small Protestant churches. (Some Protestant churches do have national structures, true, but you’re not often hearing about Lutherans doing things)
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- afiori 3y ago
  I don't think that there is any chance[0] that the autorities will go after the churches for things like these. But even if everyone tollerates the authorities turning a blind eye to the issue many would not tollerate the autorities making it an official policy or slipping up and saying stuff like "a church could run for office for all I care". The state is protecting churches in ways it should not; you likely cannot defeat this protection, but you can put pressure on the state so that it will be harder/riskier to keep doing it.[1] [0] at a trend level, or at least for the well connected churches with armies of lawyers. [1] I must warn that this is close to declaring a war (on a very small scale) and as such you could come out in a worse position than when you started.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    It seems like some kind of transparent federal oversight is desperately needed. As you say any kind of change will be interpreted incredibly negatively, so any local approach will be suppressed.
brightball 3y ago
Has anyone ever actually seen this happen? I feel like this is some boogeyman worry floating around the internet. I grew up in the south and have been in different churches for most of my life. Outside of supporting soldiers and an occasional American flag in church I’ve only seen a preacher get political once in my entire life. Even that was roundabout too.
- reaperman 3y ago
  > Has anyone ever actually seen this happen? Yep. Anti-Trump Example #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtrxQyf4XrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtrxQyf4XrM Anti-Trump Example #2 (church leader was correctly fired for this): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h098Z6g6pCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h098Z6g6pCE Anti-Democrat Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1AlrvZr95k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1AlrvZr95k (Threatens to exile people who vote Democrat from the church) Anti-Biden/Harris Example: https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-greg-locke-says-biden-demon-possessed-insists-trump-legitimate-president-1604528 https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-greg-locke-says-biden-demon-... Pro-Trump/Pence Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d24BfefW8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d24BfefW8M Local politics example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAcHN-dqpSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAcHN-dqpSc I picked a variety for illustrative purposes. But there's a bit more to the stories: https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/29320-ffrf-sues-trump-over-church-politicking https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/29320-ffrf-sues-tru... This type of "using the official church to endorse/condemn specific candidates and parties" happens all the time, and isn't limited to national politics.
  - brightball 3y ago
    Apparently I'm in the wrong churches (or the right ones).
supportlocal4h 3y ago
Everything is political. Absolutely everything. From the size of a parking lot to whether a browser can be included in an OS. To express an opinion on such things is an act of political activism. Abortion, gun contol, vim. Which one is not political? Which one is not a matter of religion?
- eropple 3y ago
  You're not wrong. It's also why this is an excellent argument for the private practice of religion. And taxing them if they want real estate and monetary income.
  - supportlocal4h 3y ago
    I'm open to a discussion about this. It just so happens that I have recently witnessed many very generous people give out 100,000s of dollars in scholarships to local high schoolers. I'm willing to consider that those donations should also be taxed. I'm also open to discussions of a flat tax and abolishing food tax and lots of other tax ideas. Including allowing tax deductions for charitable giving and tax exemptions for lots of things. I'm ok with allowing some, but I see the room for abuse. We'll never eliminate all abuse and we'll never get everything exactly fair. But we can keep making tweaks in the never-ending pursuit.

by afiori 3y ago

Timon3 3y ago

What if the authorities don't mind the churches doing so? It seems like, especially leading up to elections, you see videos of this almost every day. How can someone actually make sure that some consequences happen?

kashunstva 3y ago
> How can someone actually make sure that some consequences happen? You can’t, because the IRS steadfastly refuses to pursue these violations. I’m an active lifetime member of the Freedom From Religion Foundation; and through our organization these near-constant occurrences of political endorsement by churches have been reported numerous times. To no avail. To make matters worse, clergy in the U.S. often receive a large portion of their income as a housing allowance which is not taxable, as I understand it. But the majority of course still take their mortgage interest deduction. It’s a racket.
- xupybd 3y ago
  I know several church ministers. They work hard and get paid very little. Maybe the tax payer should not be subsidizing them but to say it's a racket is not fair. Some celebrity church leaders live lives of luxury but the average needs the tax breaks just to survive.
  - reaperman 3y ago
    > the average needs the tax breaks just to survive. The question becomes: Are the umbrella organizations paying the ministers just the bare minimum to keep them on? So if the tax breaks are stopped, will the church organization cover the new difference, or lose the ministers? It might still be a racket where the ministers are also getting screwed. The benefit of the tax breaks may not go to the minister who receives the tax break, but instead benefit the archdiocese/convention/council/conference/synod/assembly/convocation/etc who pays
    - bombcar 3y ago
      For those outside the USA they may be surprised just how many churches in the USA are effectively independent franchises with no real central authority. People think of “Catholic Church” as the large multinational agency, but when you hear people talking about churches in the USA it’s often small Protestant churches. (Some Protestant churches do have national structures, true, but you’re not often hearing about Lutherans doing things)
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
afiori 3y ago
I don't think that there is any chance[0] that the autorities will go after the churches for things like these. But even if everyone tollerates the authorities turning a blind eye to the issue many would not tollerate the autorities making it an official policy or slipping up and saying stuff like "a church could run for office for all I care". The state is protecting churches in ways it should not; you likely cannot defeat this protection, but you can put pressure on the state so that it will be harder/riskier to keep doing it.[1] [0] at a trend level, or at least for the well connected churches with armies of lawyers. [1] I must warn that this is close to declaring a war (on a very small scale) and as such you could come out in a worse position than when you started.
- Timon3 3y ago
  It seems like some kind of transparent federal oversight is desperately needed. As you say any kind of change will be interpreted incredibly negatively, so any local approach will be suppressed.

brightball 3y ago

Has anyone ever actually seen this happen? I feel like this is some boogeyman worry floating around the internet. I grew up in the south and have been in different churches for most of my life. Outside of supporting soldiers and an occasional American flag in church I’ve only seen a preacher get political once in my entire life. Even that was roundabout too.

reaperman 3y ago
> Has anyone ever actually seen this happen? Yep. Anti-Trump Example #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtrxQyf4XrM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtrxQyf4XrM Anti-Trump Example #2 (church leader was correctly fired for this): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h098Z6g6pCE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h098Z6g6pCE Anti-Democrat Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1AlrvZr95k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1AlrvZr95k (Threatens to exile people who vote Democrat from the church) Anti-Biden/Harris Example: https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-greg-locke-says-biden-demon-possessed-insists-trump-legitimate-president-1604528 https://www.newsweek.com/pastor-greg-locke-says-biden-demon-... Pro-Trump/Pence Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d24BfefW8M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d24BfefW8M Local politics example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAcHN-dqpSc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAcHN-dqpSc I picked a variety for illustrative purposes. But there's a bit more to the stories: https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/29320-ffrf-sues-trump-over-church-politicking https://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/29320-ffrf-sues-tru... This type of "using the official church to endorse/condemn specific candidates and parties" happens all the time, and isn't limited to national politics.
- brightball 3y ago
  Apparently I'm in the wrong churches (or the right ones).

supportlocal4h 3y ago

Everything is political. Absolutely everything. From the size of a parking lot to whether a browser can be included in an OS. To express an opinion on such things is an act of political activism. Abortion, gun contol, vim. Which one is not political? Which one is not a matter of religion?

eropple 3y ago
You're not wrong. It's also why this is an excellent argument for the private practice of religion. And taxing them if they want real estate and monetary income.
- supportlocal4h 3y ago
  I'm open to a discussion about this. It just so happens that I have recently witnessed many very generous people give out 100,000s of dollars in scholarships to local high schoolers. I'm willing to consider that those donations should also be taxed. I'm also open to discussions of a flat tax and abolishing food tax and lots of other tax ideas. Including allowing tax deductions for charitable giving and tax exemptions for lots of things. I'm ok with allowing some, but I see the room for abuse. We'll never eliminate all abuse and we'll never get everything exactly fair. But we can keep making tweaks in the never-ending pursuit.